Jupiter restorations.

[Mike Allfrey]

David,

I have been trying to get some form of action from Jowett Car Spares Limited on the subject of the County full hydraulic wheel cylinders not being fit for purpose. The silence from JCS has been profound.

I do not blame JCS for this disastrous situation - I consider that whoever sold the County wheel cylinders to JCS as being at fault here. I have no idea as to how many wheel cylinders may still be in stock, but the information should be sent out with each wheel cylinder sold by JCS. I believe my notes are clear enough for use as a Service Bulletin.

For close to sixty years, I have wondered why my Jupiter brake pedal travelled further before any braking action took place, compared with the Javelin I owned for a number of years. The bore in the master cylinder rear body for the plunger was deeper. This meant that with a new Jowett specified plunger fitted, that plunger had to travel further before the recuperating seal did its job. Fitting a genuine master cylinder resolved the problem.

Such inconsistencies teach us a great amount over time!

Regards,

Mike A.

[Chris Spencer]

They have probably decided to ignore your soapbox rambling's and I don't blame them - I'm a specialist Jowett restorer in the UK - not someone that's just set up after restoring my own Jowett and thinking that I'd try my hand at other owners cars - I'm apprentice trained - time served and restored countless classic / vintage / collectors vehicles over the last 47 years - probably getting on for countless Jowetts too along with a armful of concours awards - I also 'spanner' for 2 Jowett race teams - Whilst I fully appreciate that you have long & rich history of Jowetts too - In restoration I always expect to check / adjust - often fettle parts to ensure that they fit & operate correctly - I also appreciate that we are talking about safety critical items at this point too - However I have over a number of years fitted countless wheel cylinders / master cylinders / brake shoes / handbrake cables / brake pipe sets - to a good number of Jowetts - JCS is my only supplier - County wheel cylinders are just one of parts that they supply and I fit them without issue - Obviously you don't like them - then off you go and then source them from elsewhere BUT don't go advising others that they are not fit for purpose when countless others are being fitted by other owners without issue.

[David Kemp]

With risk of starting a club civil war, my views confer with Mike, as had I read his notes on county parts I would not be in my current predicament.
I also fettle & make parts fit , as I have stated in the past though I will not fettle a 75 year old part to make a sub standard part fit. I alter the part to fit the jowett. if it cant be modified I wont do it. If some County parts are good , it is only evidence of poor quality control by County.which seems typical of cheaper suppliers. My children have classic Mini's & have learnt at cost that if you order cheap parts 4 in the box ate ok the 5th is crap.
They also prefer to buy made in UK as quality is more consistent.

[Mike Allfrey]

To: Chris Spencer.

First, I admire what I read about you and have great respect for what you do. Thank you for that.

Second, I purchased a complete set of the County wheel cylinders in the belief that I would receive a set of wheel cylinders that would be installed at first attempt. Not one cylinder fitted with any ease. The stud positions on the front cylinders were out of position on the body. The mounting boss was a tight fit, but the stud holes in the back plate had to be opened out a small amount. No big drama there.

As for the rear pair, the set that I received were, most definitely, not fit for purpose. My reasoning is concern for Jowett owners who do not have investigative skills to resolve such fit-up concerns. After initial installation on the brake back plate, the handbrake mechanism was completely inoperable, and the brake drum could not be installed. To me, that is 'not fit for purpose'.

I have a strong belief that such matters should be written about and, possibly if applicable, service bulletins be issued with those parts that require fettling before installation.

It is my belief that, through no fault of Jowett Spares Limited, I received wheel cylinders that matched some other vehicle. Others could encounter similar concerns and they need to be advised.

Back in 1956 I commenced and completed an apprenticeship with the M.G., Standard/Triumph and Massey Harris - Ferguson agent in Bristol, moved on to Bamfords (Uttoxeter) to work in the Experimental Department, then emigrated to Melbourne, Victoria, Australia to work in the engineering department at New Holland Division of Sperry Rand (later to become Sperry New Holland, Ford New Holland and finally come under the F.I.A.T. umbrella). Over my career, I had frequent involvement with Girling brake systems - never experiencing the type of concerns that I encountered with the County brand wheel cylinders. Incidentally, New Holland self-propelled machines used Girling brake systems.

I do not have a soap box - I am just trying to make people aware of my concern.

Should you desire it, I will gladly withdraw all of the Jowett Technical Notes Series from all Jowett related clubs. Please let me know and I will action the total removal of the notes.

Kind regards,

Mike Allfrey.

[Forumadmin]

This forum is here precisely to act as a way of sharing our Jowett experiences.

Mike and my post crossed and I am glad that he has responded. Mike please disregard what Chris has said as he has a habit of upsetting people which is why he calls himself the Grumpy Northerner.

Since Mike has purchased parts from JCS and found problems fitting, then thouroughly checked against the originals and doing other research and fully documenting the results before communicating directly with JCS, I would hope that JCS could respond to him.

Bear in mind Mike lives in Australia so sending parts back is not cost effective, especially as this cost should really be borne by the supplier.

At the very least the existing stock should be checked as per Mike's instructions to confirm to Mike that he must have received a bad batch. This would also allay any fears held by others.

JCS is staffed by hard working volunteers and Mike was only trying to help. Note that Mike ran the JCCA parts scheme in Australia for decades virtually on his own.

I could search for the many other instances on this forum of defective new or professionally reconditioned Jowett brake parts. So Mike's experience is not unique.

[Chris Spencer]

Mr Clements - your quote

Mike please disregard what Chris has said as he has a habit of upsetting people which is why he calls himself the Grumpy Northerner.

How wrong you are - Chris does not have a habit of upsetting people nor do I go out of my way to do so - I do however speak what I see and I wont use fluffy bunny language in doing so - some don't appreciate my direct approach whilst many others do - The ones that don't appreciate the direct approach predominantly confuse it with a grumpy attitude - I cannot deny that I'm am very much from North of the UK - The term 'Grumpy Northener' (Yes its spelt how I want it spelt) refers to all the people that don't get or understand 'Chris Spencer' - Don't see the or understand the passion, commitment, time & energy expended into helping others - you can then add the outgoing hospitality should you wish - Keith you have at numinous times been very much a benefit of such and likewise myself of you - Its what I call a 2 way street but obviously your memory is somewhat failing.

I'm not here to seek out enemies but we are all entitled to our own opinions based upon our own experiences, Mike you do as you wish don't let me hold you to ransom. Keith whilst ever you wish utter such twaddle you might then probably start to understand why I very much favour an alternative classic / vintage vehicle forum than the one that you've peddled for decades.

[Chris Spencer]

In order conclude the matter then (but there is no pleasing some of you) - You may wish to consider in future that should you have a problem with a part / parts / component that you relate the issue directly with the supplier and advise them accordingly hence allowing them to respond accordingly. That course of action would appear very obvious and its certainly the one that I take but I fully accept that I'm not perfect though.

For the ones that feel that the alternative method to deal with such complaints is to broadcast it to a member or public forum prior to contacting the supplier (whilst using the excuse that you don't want others to experience that same problem) Denying the supplier the opportunity to respond / take action - then you deserve what you get - that may well result in a negative response or no response at all.

I fully accept that we are all individuals and all have our own way of doing things - some of those ways are practical common sense and others just don't make sense - Then there's the ones that always know better, have owned more of them, done more of them, holds more experience than them - where common sense is nonsense and teamwork is judged to be a tactic too far - Sometimes, just sometimes it pays to look from the outside of the box / take a rain check before standing on the soapbox.

[David Morris]

Hi All,

Absolutely all I would like to add to this debate concerning wheel cylinders is that I have experienced rear brake problems on full hydraulic systems that turned out to be completely unconnected with the wheel cylinders.

After fitting all new parts to the rear brakes, we found it absolutely impossible to refit the drums over the new shoes, as Mike has mentioned in this thread above. This turned out to be nothing to do with the new wheel cylinders. It was connected with the brake expanders, fitted at the bottom of the back plate, and the only part we hadn't fitted as new, being in good original condition. We had assumed this part to be in good condition, only requiring cleaning and fresh brake grease.

What we hadn't realised was that it is perfectly possible to fit the 'wedges' that operate against the feet of the brake shoes the WRONG way round. It many then look perfectly ok, but the wedges actually stick out too far and make refitting the brake drum over the new shoes an impossible task. It was a simple job to reverse the wedges and solve a problem that had us foxed for days and blaming everything else, including the new shiny wheel cylinders and the relined brake shoes!

Hoping this hint helps someone?

All the best,

David

[PAUL BEAUMONT]

David, your comments concerning the adjusters are a very good point. Most of my Jowett experience has been with Bradfords and these infernal things have been the bane of my life for years (about 50). As you point out the tappets are different and getting them wrong way round causes all sorts of problems. To ensure that they are correct, the adjuster should have 4 distinct positions of stability in a full rotation. If on adjusting it its stable positions are "wooly" this is a sure sign that they are fitted incorrectly. This could well explain the issue that I raised about a year ago when I said that the problem (then of getting the drum on - now inoperable hand brakes) does not seem to occur on every assembly.
I warned Mike when he bought the original cyliunders, that if he had a problem getting the drum on he should dismantle the cylinder and reduce the stem of the mushroom moulding by about 1mm. I have shared this with Chris S. who now routinely does it. I do not know why County use a different spring to Girling, maybe commonisation of parts, but I believe that it is not its length that is the issue, rather the wire gauge. It is important that the springs do not go solid in compression and, when time permits, I am investigating this. I am interested that Mike has now come to the same conclusion.
Keith, the profile of your shoes is quite correct.
It is my intention to assemble a complete back plate when I get a chance (I currently spend over 2 days a week on Jowett Car Spares business and there are only 7 days in my week!!) but JCS is woefully short of hand brake components
Like Keith I have samples of County, OEM Girling Cylinders and Aftermarket Girling cylinders but comparisons are not easy!
Mike, I actually worked for Lucas Girling for 10 years, though admittedly only on passenger car brakes and actuation for abour 2 years!

[Forumadmin]

Paul, As requested, I have a pair of original rear wheel cylinders with handbrake mechanism for you to use for testing that you will have tomorrow.

[David Kemp]

I have made a simple tester for my slave cylinders out of a trailer master cylinder.
They are honed old girlings with County inards. It is better if they leak on a bench than over my new shoes.

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[Forumadmin]

The tester is a good idea. It is worthwhile taking cylinders apart and checking all the components for cleanliness.

[David Kemp]

I have bought a brake pipe flare tool & made my own brake pipes.
It was just as well as the front slave cylinders have a different flare than the old lines.
Seems there are at least two types of flates

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[Keith Clements]

This thread discusses the flares.
viewtopic.php?p=47606#p47606

[David Kemp]

I am back , playing with my Jupiter as my Bradford is now running.
I could spend more time on my Bradford, but like an old house it is now more maintenance than rebuild.
I have built a proper engine stand as last time balancing on the kitchen table was not the best.
My plan is to pull the engine out & fix the ring gear & water leaks:
Both are better done on a stand.

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