From Mike Allfey
I have just received the devastating news that Phil Squire’s, twice re-built by me, Javelin PB engine is currently shifting coolant into the engine oil sump at an alarming rate. This rate is best described as 3 litres on a run of a handful of kilometres (i.e. from Belgrave to Belgrave South and return). My own suspicion is that the crankcase has cracked somewhere.
Below is what I have asked Phil to do, initially.
Quote:
IMPORTANT!
Do not start the engine.
1. Remove the radiator cap and check the coolant level.
2. If it is low, the coolant will have sunk to the bottom of the sump, and that is what the oil pump will suck in first. Not at all good for the crankshaft bearings!
3. Remove the four sparking plugs.
4. As I suggested, use a small diameter wooden dowel as a dipstick at each cylinder to find out if coolant has filled a cylinder.
5. Still, with the plugs removed, and the plug leads well away from an earth point near the plug holes, crank the engine with the starter motor and see if any coolant is expelled from one or more cylinders. If so let me know.
6. Remove the rocker covers and look for coolant there. If a cylinder head gasket has failed, there would be a margarine residue inside the rocker cover. If none is evident, top up the radiator and observe the push rod bores/tubes in the cylinder heads. Coolant that has collected in a tappet chest, will drain at those points. With the rocker covers in place, it would continue to drain through ports into the sump.
7. Last, drain the sump, remove the sump and look for coolant coming through from underneath.
As I mentioned, I consider that the coolant consumption is far greater than for a cylinder head gasket leak point.
End quote.
Is there anything further I could suggest? That is why I have copied in British and New Zealand enthusiasts, in case I have missed something.
Now, it gets serious.
I want to know exactly what went on with this engine, that was supposedly reconditioned by a “Jowett Expert”. I demand the truth on this, because I have contributed too much of my life building this luckless engine, two times from scratch. The crankcase had been extensively weld repaired prior to Phil’s purchase of the PB Javelin. I am fully aware of the term caveat emptor (buyer beware), however, there were far too many signs of the engine having been botched by the so-called “Jowett expert” that it beggars belief.
To provide a smidgeon of local history, my first involvement in this disaster was at a garage day held in my workshop. The dismantled engine (as a result of a broken connecting rod) was shown to me. It is understood that I suggested to Phil that the damaged parts be taken to a local engine specialist for repair and machining.
The absolutely bizarre point is this, I would have seen the previous welding and would have recommended finding another crankcase set and start from there. I would have rejected such a weld repaired crankcase out of hand.
Since I started this message, Phil has carried out Step 4. Coolant in cylinders two and four. I can’t really believe that the cylinder head gasket has failed. It could well be a crack in the cylinder head. But, to consume 3 litres of coolant in so few kilometres? And have the oil sump fill over night? I am really wondering?
Any comment will be gratefully accepted.
Thank you,
Response from Neil Moore,
Mmmmmmmm, Mike , sounds like a gasket if water is in both heads on one side. It's possible for water to migrate up the inlet ports on one side to the other cylinder as gravity will push past slightly open valves. There are a couple of checks for gasket leaks or block leaks without removing the head but sounds like that's inevitable.
A compression test (after draining the water contaminated oil so it doesnt get all thro the oil ways and draining the filter into sump). Will show a gasket leak . Enough oil remains to crank engine over safely.
A dummy plug with air fitting can with low air pressure show leaks cyl to rad or cyl to sump . And removing pushrods covers will show a crack in the valleys with water oozing tho that wouldn't get water in cylinders!
Other long shot possibilities are a porous liner or a pinhole in same.
A head crack but I've never had one to leak water into cylinder !
Actually the easiest way to find a crook gasket is to drain oil and water , put plugs back and turn the engine over on crank handle watching with the dizzy cap off to indicate the cylinder. You'll feel the lack of compression easily!
Have fun. Neil Moore
Response from Drummond Black
Mike, I tend to agree with Neil. I have an engine in the workshop at present which suffered from a similar issue. It was showing signs of leaking on all cylinders. ???
The timing cover and the rear water inlet tubes ( including both bottom hoses) were removed. For the rear area, Blank flanges were made up, and with a gasket, This blanked off both cylinder banks.
At the Timing Cover front face of the crankcase a flange, that would cover the water outlet area, was made for each side. An adaption for a tyre valve was soldered to it to allow each cylinder bank in turn to be pressurised in turn. The bank containing cylinders 1 and 3 held a pressure of 4 PSI with no issue. The bank containing cylinders 2 and 4 leaked badly. This was traced to the Cylinder Head Gasket
area along the top. On removing the Cylinder Head the Gasket was found to have totally collapsed. The was found to be an Auckland Gasket. This is the first one I have ever found, if fitted correctly, to have been in a bad state.
So, similar check to Neil located the issue. I must say that the liner protrusion on that side was really not sufficient. This is still awaiting rectification.
Trust this assists.
Further from Mike.
Dear All of You,
I tend to agree with you Neil and Drummond. However, after such careful work with the cylinder head studs and cylinder liner protrusion, along with warming the engine and leaving it to stabilise for twenty minutes, and with my torque wrench at the same setting as the first finish-tightening, all of the studs tightened (solidly) exactly the same amount. That meant that I was quite confident. With solid copper liner seat spacers and shims, I opted for 0.008” liner protrusion. Also, the cylinder head gasket supports were shimmed to the same protrusion with brass shims I had made. I was very wary of any more protrusion due to the balance pipe flanges having been machined off flat with the gasket surfaces. The machining of the flanges is something I have never condoned, but the engine reconditioner’s shop told me that, with all the welding, the gasket face was ‘all over the place’, a reasonable explanation and with the current gaskets performing well, I felt they would manage easily with the flat surface.
Having experienced a similar problem with Richard Homersham’s engine, which did reveal a ‘sunk’ cylinder liner (just how with copper spacer and shims, I still don’t know why), I thought such problems were sort of beaten. In that instance, a 0.003” shim was added to the one liner. Now, I am wondering. Could bored out liners ‘give’, Ferguson tractor liners did after just a 0.010” oversize boring operation. The other thing that concerns me, are all of the four cylinder liners in this engine from the same batch? Another thought worth pondering is the age of the metal that makes up the crankcase set.
With the massive coolant leakage at the head gasket, and with such a short distance travelled, since the leakage discovery, shouldn’t there have been a significant cloud of steam at the exhaust and, wouldn’t there have been the distinctive smell of hot coolant inhibitor (anti-freeze)?
I suppose I am the only Jupiter and Javelin owner who has never experienced a cylinder head gasket failure in 54 years! That means that I do not know what the exhaust would have been up to on that short run.
More from Neil.
Hi Mike and all, Our modern Auckland gaskets are not perfect, as the copper if not supported will fret and fracture , so liner heights are important. As we all know setting them is a not so precise exercise as the block /gasket surfaces are after 60 odd years variable. However saying that we are only trying to seal 4psi water around the edges but the liners must have the 6-8 thou above the edges. I always bottom the liners without shims and average out the readings around the liner at say 4to 6 spots. Some blocks the liners will be different on same side. The other thing to watch is bore size as standard bore gaskets are no good on bores 75mm or bigger. We have o/s gaskets fit bigger bores as the gasket fold will be in the bore and not seal. Have fun. Neil
Note the shims must be measured individually as they're not always flat new and then added together to get heights,. Use a micrometer, a vernier is not accurate enough.
Response from Jim Scott
Hi Mike and all,
I can't imagine Phil's and your disappointment, I know it has been a long road for you.
I haven't had much experience with the Jowett engine, yet!! and I know you are all going to threaten me with all sorts of terrible things for my suggestion, but I have had some experience with Peugeot engines which are also wet sleeve. I had all sorts of grief with two seperate 2lt engines.
It was suggested to me that I give the first one a dose of Chemiweld. I was loath to try it at first, but in desperation I did give it a go and and believe it or not it worked and it kept on working for years, until the car was sold. I am a believer, to the point I carry a bottle with me when I travel, now days. The main thing is that you get the engine almost to boiling point before adding it to the radiator.
I know it is probably not a purists fix, but it is worth a try for about $15 a bottle.
I know it doesn't give you the answers you want, but it may save a heap of frustration.
Please don't drum me out of the club for this suggestion, but I have little else to offer.
Good luck.
Cheers, Jim Scott
From Keith Clements
Check torque of cylinder head nuts on 2.4 head. If they move likely block cracked or threads stripped and gasket seal broken.
I now support the head gasket around the centre stud as I did get a few gaskets separate. But they were the original type.
When head removed take picture of each side of gasket before cleaning to check where pinch was loose.
Response back from Mike.
Many Thanks Keith,
Good point about checking the torque on the cylinder head at cylinders 2 and 4. It was that side that caused all the grief that generated my Technical Note about fitting the extended stud through the coolant inlet port.
I do tend to doubt that the threads in the crankcase have stripped, and the Number 7 stud (in the torque sequence) was threaded into new metal, albeit welded metal.
Also an interesting comment about gasket separation, also from Neil Moore. I have always used the Series III cast aluminium support, shimmed to the same height as the liners on that side. These can differ. I never did like the tube and plate version.
This separation in the gaskets makes me wonder if the Jupiter’s copper-asbestos-steel wasn’t the result of similar concerns? I have been impressed with the NZ gaskets though. I think I have a new genuine Jupiter gasket here somewhere. Probably illegal in these PC times!
I cannot get to the task for a couple of days, but will let you all know the result of the ‘Torquing Test’. One thought has occurred to me – the Number 4 stud is, if I remember correctly, the one that was 0.5625” (14.3 mm) longer than the one for the other side. If that stud has ‘given’ then the gasket would have lost its clamping force at the liners.
We shall see!
Now from Andrew Henshall
Dear Mike & Phil,
You both must be so disappointed and feeling very frustrated at the same time. You have put in major commitment (time & money) & the results of many years of your experience Mike into this engine, and so this news is very unexpected.
I have little to add to the feedback from the others, except to say that with a reported loss of 3 litres of coolant in a drive of only 6 km, and with coolant now present in two cylinders on one bank, the engine must be running fairly roughly with a fair amount of steam coming out the exhaust at idle! My experience when running various engines in this condition is that they continue to produce sufficient power to drive around on the road, but they really don't like to idle, and they will not restart after cooling down due to hydraulic lock.
Why not analyse the most likely single cause of coolant being present in two cylinders on one bank, as well as coolant collecting in the sump, because these symptoms are usually due to quite separate causes? Failure of the head gasket at the No 4 head stud, (it being on the centre-line), can result in coolant in both cylinders on that bank, but how does so much coolant get into the sump. Surely not past the rings! I wonder if the crankcase has failed at the bottom of the No 4 head stud causing a direct path for coolant into the sump, and simultaneously failure of the liner seals at the head gasket on both cylinders?
Note: Wal Munro's Javelin engine failed with steam & coolant pushed out the radiator cap during a drive, and massive quantities of coolant in the sump, yet it started & ran quite well. In October 2013, after a few years of sitting in Wal's garage without coolant in the engine, I measured the compression pressures and they were OK at 110 - 130 psi. The engine started perfectly and idled beautifully at about 400 rpm! The subsequent strip down in the UK confirmed a failed head gasket.
When a liner seal at the head gasket fails, it invariably pressurises the coolant system with combustion gases, and the result is always that coolant & steam is expelled from the radiator cap when loading the engine during a drive. There is no mention of this in your report below however.
As far as the previous history of Phil's engine goes, he purchased the car from Adam Francis in VIC, who purchased it from Barry Allertz in NSW, who bought it from John Ireland in Brisbane QLD. I've been told that John did a nice job in restoring the body and interior, but he was hindered by some very strange mechanical ideas. He would only let you help when he wanted a hand with something, and would not take advice on anything.
I wish you all the best and look forward to gaining a better understanding of the issue at your Workshop Session on October.
Response from Mike
Thanks Andrew,
My thoughts entirely. However, with the dramatic gravitation of coolant to cylinders and sump, I have asked Phil to not start the engine at all until I get there, maybe on Wednesday due to a two day commitment.
I do have serious doubts about Number 4 stud on that side. My initial plan at present is this:
Have the car on the hoist.
Remove rocker covers.
Fill radiator with coolant mix.
Observe if there is leakage to sump via push rod tunnels. If so, crankcase half could well be cracked.
Check torque of cylinder head bolts. This could be revealing.
Maybe drop the sump and watch for what is coming through cylinder bores and elsewhere, also revealing. The ring gaps were inside tolerance, and I find it hard to believe so much coolant can get through there in such a short time span.
Work out what to do next.
What really baffles me is the apparent lack of steam at the exhaust. In Belgrave traffic the engine would have been idling for a fair time. At home, there would have been radiator overflow puddles. Also, there would be a lingering smell of coolant that has been through combustion cycles. That would be noticeable, just a drip onto a hot exhaust manifold gets Sue’s concerned attention.
As mentioned before, we shall see,
Andrew...
Jim!!!! How Could You???? Please go and wash your mouth out (preferably with Chemiweld)!
Seriously, Chemiweld does indeed work in some situations. My concern, and probably yours was too, is what does Chemiweld do to the cooling system performance, as all the surfaces in the block & radiator will be coated with gunk. Chemiweld (in my opinion) is probably the best sealant available but I would only use it as a last resort or in an emergency, because it's so hard to get out of the block and the radiator at a later stage.
Back at Ford Motor Co of Australia, when we had the well-known issue of head gasket failures on our 6-cylinder engines (pre BA Falcon), people tried everything to keep their cars going, and the most common backyard solution was Chemiweld. Katrina & I actually ran a 6-cyl EB Falcon tow-car for years, and, as expected, when it got to 150,000 km the head gasket failed. We replaced the head & kept running the car. At about 250,000 km, the head gasket failed again (as expected), and this time I used Chemiweld to get it running again, and not too long afterwards traded the car in on a 6-cyl BA Falcon with the new multi-layer steel head gasket! Our 2003 BA Falcon tow-car has now done >250,000 without any head gasket issues, and in fact the field experience with BA - BF 6-cylinder engines is that head gasket issues are very very rare. I was the BA engine program co-ordinator at Ford Product Development, and actually stood in for the design engineer responsible for the head gasket, pistons, rods, crank, bearings, etc after he had major heart surgery. I can't take any credit for solving the head gasket failure issue though!
The bottom line with Chemiweld is that it only works in some situations. It doesn't usually work for radiator leaks, and if a head gasket failure at the cylinder top seal has been run for any significant length of time, then the gasket will usually be blown out completely by the combustion gases and there is no way that Chemiweld can seal it again!
Yes, Phil must definitely not try to start the engine with the risk of hydraulic lock present!
A long time ago, I had a head gasket fail on an in-line engine, which resulted in a cylinder part-filling with coolant overnight. I knew this was the case because it would not crank over by hand. I removed the spark plugs, and rather than continuing to hand crank the engine, and being young & stupid, I gave it a decent go on the starter motor to clear all the coolant. The jet of high velocity coolant that came out the spark plug hole was very impressive! I actually got the engine running again, but quickly decided that it needed to be pulled out of the car and rebuilt.
Cheers,
Andrew
More from Neil.
Hi Mike and all, another thought, Which mention of extensive welding brought to mind. This is very unusual but it did happen once. Some blocks corrode badly on lower central part of the water jacket between liners with a deep vee' hollow. It's not always obvious and usually occurs outside the sump studs and water goes onto the ground. However this one block was further in and leaked water inside the sump studs and straight into the sump. With sump off and water into engine it was soon obvious and really the only way to fix is loctite metal mend stuff, as it's impossible to weld in there.
However that's not your problem, I'll bet it's a gasket gone. The question is why so soon? Probably liner heights. Best to remove gasket carefully if possible and measure the compression difference between the liner squash and the block squash to see if liner heights ok. Again with a micrometer.
Our gaskets after the asbestos nonsense made us change materials did nobody any favours. It's now a cellulose material, 10 thou thicker , but softer and must be retightened hot . It's definitely not as good as theoriginal German made Reintz material we used but that's no longer available . I have investigated another material but it would've doubled the cost so really wasn't a starter and with reasonable fitting the current material gives quite good results Up to 9::1 compressions Regards Neil
and Keith
I would not bother putting more coolant in. If you do just use water.
A compression test will immediately tell you if the the gasket is gone ( although it could also be a symptom of head crack , valve gone or liner crack). Using compressed air via the spark plug is also a way to see where the decompression is going.---bubbles in coolant , noise in carb or exhaust port or noise in oil filler.
My money is on a cracked block.