Modern diff mod- not for the average do-it-yourselfer.

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Keith Clements
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Modern diff mod- not for the average do-it-yourselfer.

Post by Keith Clements »

Perhaps Mike Allfrey can take us through his mod fitting a modern diff to his Jup. See sequence of pictures here. http://jowett.org/jowettnet/dt/magazine/JCCA-50th/Image
A JUPITER WITH 4.11:1 REAR AXLE
Many years ago, in my youth, I decided to install a Laycock de Normanville overdrive unit from a 1950s Humber Hawk into the Jupiter. The seed was sown at that first windswept, rain swept National Jowett Day in Bradford in 1966. I think it was George Mitchell and someone from the south who suggested an overdrive conversion. I took it all in and went home planning just how to do it. My Jupiter, then, was in a very rusted and rotted state, so a spot of butchering wouldn't matter! The job grew to the extent that I used the overdrive unit as a midship bearing and coupled it by a short shaft to a Sunbeam Rapier gearbox – having lifted the steering rack to make room.
During the car's most recent rebuild, I decided that it should be brought back as close to 'standard' as possible. Out went the Rapier gearbox and the overdrive soon followed it. Once the car was back on the road, it was again evident how low geared it seemed to be. This was particularly so on the long flat stretches so often encountered here. Something had to be done before the Jupiter was shipped to England for the Pitlochry and Le Mans events. I finally decided on a "Continental Touring" rear axle with a higher ratio.
Just around the corner was a workshop that specialized in rear axle overhauls and conversions for hot rods and such. Initial investigation revealed that it was a simple matter to insert a modern differential assembly and retain the Jupiter hubs, brakes and suspension. The choice of differential was then discussed. It seemed that Nissan Bluebird vehicles provided a number of ratios to choose from, but they were not deemed to be reliable enough to handle the Jowett engine's torque characteristics! The final choice was a Ford Falcon differential from a XY Utility (pick-up), at 4.11:1. This was chosen for the following reasons:
 It was made in Australia – none of that Japanese rubbish in my Jupiter!
 It was fairly common.
 It was stronger than the original Salisbury differential in the Jowett. For starters, there were four spider gears instead of two. Tractor experience told me that four spider gears were far more durable than two.
 Visually it looked very similar to the original housing.
 It was equipped with larger differential carrier bearings.
 The installer was happy about it.
The rear axle assembly was removed from the Jupiter and taken to the installer, less brake drums. It was dismantled and straight away there was a telephone call. "How much work had the axle assembly done?" "Well over 100,000 miles", was my response. That figured, all of the Timken taper roller bearings were worn out, as was the crownwheel carrier. He was instructed to install new hub bearings and whatever was needed in the Ford part of it.
The actual conversion involved the following operations:
1. Detailed measurements of the original axle housing weld assembly. These were all written onto a plan drawing. Particular note was made of the Panhard rod bracket and the hand brake compensator bracket.
2. The axle housing weld assembly was then cut inboard of the rear suspension brackets and the centre was put to one side.
3. The same operation was carried out on the Ford housing.
4. A pair of sleeves were machined to accept the differing axle housing tube diameters. The tube ends and centre housing were pressed into these and welded.
5. This is where the first major problem arose, because the Jowett ends were welded upside down. The installer was good about it and rectified the concern – or so we thought.
6. The differential side gears from both axles were annealed so that they could be machined. The original Jupiter gears were machined to form a pair of splined sleeves. The Ford gears were machined to fit over the Jupiter sleeves.
7. The installer described the process of securing the machined gears to the splined sleeves as 'copperizing' – a process with which I am not familiar. It was guaranteed to cope with far more power and torque that the Jupiter could develop.
8. The gear/sleeve assemblies were then re-hardened ready for installation.
9. The axle was then assembled with new bearings and seals throughout.
10. The cost of the conversion was $A900.
After installing the modified axle assembly into the car, a test drive soon revealed that a 60 mph cruising speed could be enjoyed before propellor shaft vibration set in. It was noticed that second and third gears were really useable in traffic situations. Third gear was particularly pleasant. However, the gap between third gear and top gear was felt to be more pronounced. My Jupiter has a standard low ratio gearbox, and this feature will probably make for a longer life for bottom gear. On the flat, the car takes off happily in second gear from stationary.
It was time to ship the Jupiter to England, and it was while overseas that the driveline concern really raised its ugly head. After our extended tour to Scotland, the car was put on a hoist and the perceived cause of the concern was a loose universal joint at the rear. A new joint kit was installed and it was time to set off for Le Mans. It was here that the vibration became much more severe on the way back it was so bad that we thought, upon reaching the summit of the Pont du Nord over the Seine, we would be hurled over the edge! On the descent, things calmed down and all was reasonably OK till we reached Bristol.
The Jupiter was taken to a local garage, where it was MOT'd in 1963, and the cause of the vibration was revealed. The rear axle pinion shaft was 'nose' high and the angle between it and the front shaft assembly was very unequal. The vibration had also loosened the constant velocity joint at the gearbox end, which due to the housing's shape, could not have the securing split pin installed. My fault that one!
When the Jupiter arrived back home, it was taken to the rear axle conversion shop. He was amazed at how far out it was. The axle was removed right away and the two axle shafts etc removed. The tube joining sleeves were again cut free and the tube ends rotated to ensure that, with a plumb bob hung through the upper spring arm bush centre and the axle shaft centre line, the pinion shaft was set at 90° to the plum bob line. All of this was repaired at no charge to me.
This action calmed down the vibration somewhat, but did not cure it entirely. It was time to fix that for once and for ever. The shaft assembly was removed and taken to a reputable propeller shaft repairer. It had been entirely built for me by Hardy Spicer. The repairer found unacceptable runout, both vertical and axial at welded components. All of this was corrected and I can now cruise at 70 + miles per hour for miles on end. Recently the Jupiter put just over 100 kilometres into one hour, despite being held up by a couple of trucks along the way.
Would I do it all again?
I really wonder, and, having seen Tony George's installation, an overdrive would be more tempting. However, since the rear axle conversion, many miles have been covered at relaxed engine speeds. It does struggle up some hills, but if there is a good run at them – the performance in top gear is remarkably good. Fuel starvation not withstanding.
Mike Allfrey..
Last edited by Keith Clements on Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:20 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Rear Axle Update

Post by Mike Allfrey »

Dear Keith,

I will write up the conversion for you and E-mail it to you for doing the pasting to this page bit.

Kind regards,

Mike Allfrey - E0 SA 42R.
Keith Clements
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Post by Keith Clements »

See Mike's text that I have added to the picture.
Please let us have more technical tips through JowettTalk!
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Post by Forumadmin »

Picture taken in April, as it is now.
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Post by Keith Andrews »

A word of warning...Be very carefull welding axle tubes, be changing dimentions and brackets.
I went thru this some yrs ago on the camaro, adapting a new diff.
Before doing so I asked a lot of questions of many ppl in hot rodding/mod shops. I came across a lot of horror stories of diffs/axles out of alighment due to warping/heat.
I eventually modded my diff my self successfully 1st time...it invoved a lot of measuring, jigs, mig welder and small welds, let cool.
Do not undertake this work yourself unless you have a full understaning of welding, heat, warping etc. It is a skilled job requiring some specialist experiance.
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Post by Keith Andrews »

I have read read this thread several times
"Falcon Diff" is that a 9"
Yep a very strong diff...more suited to a v8....common , along with jag rear ends amonst hot rodders...and becoming common with hi performance jappers on the 1/4 mile...along with the Lenco.
The 9" is also used in the big American V8 pickups
These things set up right will handle way over 600hp abuse day adter day.
Heavier the diff, the more it will take to turn it,
Im wondering
"It does struggle up some hills,"
Is this unit sucking too much hp? It seems to me to be a huge overkill.
The lighter Chevy posi 10 bolt (which I have in the camaro) would have been a better choice but again over kill...these handle 450 hp nps.
As to other choices of diff (jappa/old english)...I just dont know enough about them...
The Aussie salsbury used in the 6 cyliner Monaros and toranas thu got a reputation of breaking, this was because bad setups and guys dropping v8s into the cars...For a hi performace Jupiter engine, I imagine these would be far lighter more suitable..thu again I am sure there are better alternatives
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Andrew Henshall
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Post by Andrew Henshall »

[quote="As for the overdrives, this is a no go for many reasons on a Jupiter, to many to state for now.[/quote]

My plan, as part of the total restoration of our Jupiter E1SA433R, is to fit an electric overdrive (Laycock de Normanville?), so I am very interested in why you (Pat) believe this is a no no on a Jupiter. There are already a couple running in Australia with no reported issues.

Andrew
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Overdrive Fitment

Post by Drummond Black »

Pat - I am very interested in any info you have as to WHEN an Overdrive should not be fitted to a Jupiter. I have a lot of experience on running my Javelin with a Laycock Overdrive. This improved the car immensely on Long trips.

Drummond
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Post by dougie »

:D My Jupiter now has the overdrive fitted and so does Barry Houstons car.Barry has driven to Perth.Adelaide,Tasmania,etc from Brisbane with no troubles.At 100 kph my car is doing about 3200 RPM and is a pleasure to drive.Brian Holmes did a lot of the work to fit these units with an adaptor plate and having the output shaft welded to suit.The cross member at the back of the g box needs to be cut but the new one is just as strong. 8) With the long distances to cover in Australia to get to events,this makes the drive much easier on the car and driver. :roll:
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Post by Mike Allfrey »

G'dday,

I have to say that I never imagined so much discussion would develop on this topic, so I didn't have another look-see.

Pat, you can be assured that there is no oil leakage - i think the camera has lied a little for a change! I had meant to paint the rear axle grey, as is the rest of the running gear. Grey is a great colour to have under a car as we get older!

Reference the slowing down on hills, what I really meant was - that I now have to change down to third just a little bit sooner than previously. Also, I am not sure if the diff is a Ford 9". The housing is very similar to the original Jupiter and it is not much heavier. It is out of a Falcon XY Ute (pick-up).

Regards,

Mike Allfrey.
E0 SA 42R; Rover 75
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Post by Keith Andrews »

That is not a 9" nore is it the smaller 8"
The Ford Falcon performace GTs came out with 9" LSD
Utes, mostly had 9s and 8" diffs LSD
The sedans, used a wider range from performace 9" right down to salisbury diffs
Holden also used the salisbury..

The pic above from what I can see is neither a 8" or 8" ford but a salisbury.
Being a 4.11 from a xy also makes it unlikely, XYs used 2.9 , 3.3, 3.5, 3.9
Few Ford trucks used the 4.11 9"

The ford Cortina I believe had a 4.11 diff salisbury opition

So I doubt if its a ford, a 8 or 9" or out of a xy or a ute

Im not a 'ford' man and no expert on the matter...US GM muscle Im better at.

4.11s thats pretty high ...throw that in a car and you will expect well up into the low to mid 4000 rpms highway cruise on 15" wheels..
Be good around town boy racer diff, or towing big loads

I would hazard a gess, if running low 3000 rpm highway and having to chop down earlier, be in the 3.0 to 3.5 range...
Jack the rear up and count the wheel turns to diif turns.
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