Lifts

[Forumadmin]

With so many cars needing work the team is considering remodelling and fitting out the workshop.
The first decision is what to do about a car lift. Should it be the lift and turn type to give access to floor pan for welding? A pit to have easy drive in access underneath? A two post lift that is fairly quick at getting underneath the car, and possibly give extra storage space with one car on it? Or do we really need a four post lift that may be difficult to fit in the space available?

My current preference is for the lift and turn with a pit for the drive in drive out jobs; but will the bumper supports be strong enough on Jav and Jup?

[Jack]

Primary concern with a 4 post lift is the ability to manouvre cars around it - access won't be a problem once the workshop has been completed, but with a 2 post lift it should give a lot more options getting the other 2-3 cars in and out.

With a pit the covers mean that it won't affect where cars can be parked, so no problem wherever that goes.

I also think the first decision should be where to buy the concrete for the shed extension for storage of parts If we can get that area cleared out, I can get the concrete down and posts in while the weather is good, then the walls and roof should go on quickly afterwards. That buys us a lot of space, and then we can work out where and how to put a lift and pit into the rest of the space, but in theory it should be possible to park 3 cars across the back end of the garage, and have a lift and pit at the front end for ongoing projects, leaving a good gap between them and space for shelves/tools in the two corners.

We also need to work out where the lathe is going

Having seen a few spits for cars, they seem to be fairly simple things that mean you could roll a car over with engine and gearbox removed, these don't seem to be a fixed thing, instead a metal frame which is bolted onto the car to protect it as it is rolled over and then secured on its side.

The other thing to consider is height - if you put a Javelin on a lift how far before it hits the beams in the roof? 2 feet? Is that enough to make it worth having a lift? A pit means that you'd be able to work at head height on the underside of the car, and could move the car as required to get to the various parts of the floor - a lift might mean still having to work lying down underneath the car, and takes up a significant amount of space where it will need to be very securely bolted into the floor. it would, however, make life easier when working on the sides of the car, lifting it from constantly bending over to an easier height to work, but then a big set of ramps could provide that and would not need to be permanently fixed to the floor.

Jack.

[TedAllen]

I don't want to put you off too much, but consider the dangers of a pit when welding from it. I attended a fire in a small commercial garage over 40 yrs ago where the owner had perished after a fuel leak had ignited.
he simply had no means of escape. It wasn't pretty !

A pit can be somewhat restricted, in any case. You will only be able to do work down the centre of the car. I like a two poster with swinging, extendable arms....much more useful.

Ted

[Chris Gibson]

You mention roll over systems for a Javelin. I have constructed one which seems to work fine on a bare body. Whilst I have not yet made much use of I lent it to Graham Thorp (Sen) and he was pleased with it.
The pivot point was fairly near the centre of gravity of the body/chassis so rolling it was easy without assistance or jacks. The bumper mounts seem adequate on a bare body and showed no signs of disturbing the adjacent rust!
I attach a pdf with some photos and drawings.

Roll over frames.pdf

[Chris Spencer]

A pit is fine for mechanical work and even better if it has a jacking beam fitted to it, has Ted points out a pit is next to no good for welding from - it is far too restrictive - and yes I have tried it on several occasions. To install a lift at 'Garage Clement' means some serious hacking to raise the roof of the workshop in order to gain the height required. Most vehicle tilters will turn a vehicle complete with running gear in situ - I would just fabricate a heavy duty mounting bracket in place of the bumper iron for the Jav, the Jup brings it's own problem but an adaptive frame / beam could soon be fabricated. From my restoration days we used to fabricate our own jigs to mount the body to if it had a seperate chassis to enable the chassis to be restored at the same time as the body shell - the jig was just mounted on to a spit on wheels - hence it could just be moved through each section of the workshop as work progressed.

Keith - the easy route would be a pit and a spit - along with alternative storage for quite a bit of what is in the workshop at present - it would possibly be the cheapest way too.

[Keith Andrews]

Pits are holes in the floor that get in the way....hence why there are none in modern workshops.
4 poster takes a lot of space, and depending on type working behind wheels can be awarkward unless it has a chassis lift built ito it.
2 poster..takes up far more room, caustion has to be taken to put cars on the right way..espec heavyer cars, or the can tip off....generally best set up so cars are backedup on to it.....little more care putting cars on/off to not forget to clear the arms.....excellent access.... far less maintance.
2 posters also come in portable models, fold up and store away like a engine hoist....

If geeting a hoist, get them to throw a trans carrier and oil drain in to the deal...2 musts to take full advantage of a hoist.

Pits are a pain in the butt....bitch to clean, always dirty, steps get slippery over time, there will always be one idiot step back and fall in....hassle covering uncovering....installing can often lead to issues of suitable drainage, and these days that includes design so oil doesnt get into the waste water systems.
a place I used to work, a small forkhoist drove into the pit...they had to remove the roof an a big crane pick it out.

[David Morris]

Hi there,

I don't really agree that pits are bad news in the private garage. I can see that they might be a no-no in commercial usage with their H&S complications. Having said that, my local MoT station relies on a pit with travelling beams to jack up from.

I built my garage a few years ago and put a pit in from the start. Fortunately, we are 600 feet high here and our water table is about 25 feet down, so water ingress was not a problem. It was not really expensive to build, just a few more blocks and when the wooden pit boards are in place, you forget it's there. I can see the usefulness of 4 or 2 post lifts, but they are always in place and I would get tired of having to dodge around them, let alone having to give up the loft space for the height needs!

I made sure the pit went the full width of the double garage across the rear of the garage, which has two doors aat the front and an extra one at the side, to allow access over the long pit. In this way, you can always keep some of the pit uncovered by the vehicle, allowing an emergency exit up from the end of the pit!

I guess it gets used around 10 times a year, and when down there, I am always grateful for the access it gives to the underside. Having said that, I can see that it does have limitations. Welding gives real problems and here a roll-over cage would be even better than a lift or pit. Welding upside down is a real pain!

So, think about the need for access and how often you need to get underneath the vehicle. If you are a home mechanic like me, I still think the options are stacked in favour of a pit. If the water table gives problems, then you can get a fibre-glass pit insert, a bit like a bath, that cuts out any water ingress problems.

All the best,

David

[Jack]

Keith,

Some friends have reccomended this company, conveniently only 40 mins from our place so we could easily go and have a look.

Pretty reasonably priced, and if we collect no costly delivery charges. They certainly seem to know their stuff, and if we went up with the Jav that is on the road I'm sure they could knock up the right fittings sorted for us. Possibly worth a call or visit before we splash out on a spit.

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ROLLOVER-SPIT-JIG ... arParts_SM

Jack.

[Chris Spencer]

Jack this one is not really the one Keith / myself had in mind - with this the location of the car remains static in the workshop - the latest models are interconnected and are on wheels to enable you to move the shell / car anywhere - outside if you are sandblasting - into the paint shop if you are painting or simply just out of the way if you need the space for other things in the workshop.

[Jack]

Jack this one is not really the one Keith / myself had in mind - with this the location of the car remains static in the workshop - the latest models are interconnected and are on wheels to enable you to move the shell / car anywhere - outside if you are sandblasting - into the paint shop if you are painting or simply just out of the way if you need the space for other things in the workshop.

He does models with wheels Might be worth a chat to see what the options are, they seem to be able to do most things.

Jack.

[Keith Andrews]

You call that a jig or spit...we call it a rotissery....generally built as a one off in the workshop before starting a project.
They are magic to work on, everything from body work chassis painting...worth eveny penny
BUT..once the project is finished just a frame that gets thrown out the back to rust way.

It is not to be compared to a hoist or a pit for general maintance/repairs on a vechile It is useless.
Even a workshop that uses a rotissery, still has a hoist. (or pit)

Have been asking around about pits and hoists over the last couple yrs...we intend to build another workshop in the backyard around 9x 10m...also in NZ commercial workshops have covered pits and installed hoists, and if have had a hoist and pit, filled it in and installed 2nd pit....one of the mauin reasons is accident with people falling in...and every person who I have talked to who has worked in a workshop with a pit (and 2 people wwho have had them at home) have either fallen in or someonelse has.

Depending on what stud height we can make our new garage (local building permts regulations re blocking sun to neighbours properties) and roof run off design will depend If we put in a perminent 2 poster or a portable 2 poster
This is what I meant by a portable 2 poster
http://www.princessauto.com/car_hoists

This is a video of Jay Leno I assume you guys have heard of him and is also one of the great car collectors /enthuistist in the world..So see it in action....
http://www.jaylenosgarage.com/video/max ... m/1192362/

[chapman]

I have tried them all and for safety I prefer my 4 poster. This had body jacks but the pipesfeeding each jack kept being trapped and punctured so I have now got a pair of 2 ton trolley jacks which I use for the chassis lifting jobs and I have scrapped the jacks.
I do not find my 4 poster a nuisance because when I am not using it I park one jupiter on it and one underneath it except that quite a lot of my mates bring their cars so it is not often it is empty,
You need ideally a 14 ft headroom for most 4 posters and they are very cheap to buy, I paid £400 for mine and fitted it in an hour, the things to look out for if you are buying one are the climbing monkey ratchets to see if they are worn and also look to see if the wire ropes are rusty otherwise just check for hydraulic fluid leaks,
The electric pump motors are usually 3 phase so if you have not got it you need an inverter at about £100 or a single phase motor available from Fenners of Hull at about £200.
The only downside I can think of is that it is easy to walk onto the end of the raised jack and that really hurts

[Keith Andrews]

now got a pair of 2 ton trolley jacks which I use for the chassis lifting jobs and I have scrapped the jacks.

Something that one doesnt have to mess with on a 2 poster

I have tried them all and for safety I prefer my 4 poster.

The only issue of saftey on a 2 poster is if a very large vechile (big 4x4 ) is put up around the wrong way, against manufactures and common sence practice, it can on rare occassions topple off.
Saying that 4 posters also can have issues, like rear chocks not automatically locking, or starting up in gear accidentlly.
We have both 4 poster and 2 poster in the workshop, the most versiltile for most jobs and access etc over all is the 2 poster.
The 4 poster is easier bto use for Warrent of fittness certificate checks as the wheels can be dropped to the 'deck' to check suspention/steering components in the air where required, without moving to the ground or off the hoist.