Jowett Annual Weekend, Wales, June 2012

[Jack]

As Keith knows age has been a topic of regular conversation since our return, but as one of the under-30s (honestly!) the average age looked higher than I've seen before at the annual weekend. We were made to feel very welcome, as always, by everyone at the event, we made a few new friends, and we had a good time, but in all my usual socialising I spent time with less than 5 people under the age of 40 over the weekend.

I think we are making a big effort and doing a great job engaging with Jowett Juniors, and the Juniors at the rally seemed to have a good time and were busy with running their stall and there is a fair bit for them to do. As you note a 10 year-old will go where they are told, and if their parents bring them to a rally they have activities to do when they arrive.

There is it seems a gap for the 18-40s, worryingly this is becoming a gap for the 18-45s or even the 18-50s. As a club this is becoming an elephant in the room in my opinion. We are busy keeping cars on the road, saving used spares, co-ordinating a busy diary of events, but whatever we (you, me and everyone else) are doing is not attracting the under-40s to the rallies and the JCC in general. Everyone wants to see more younger people at the rallies, involved in the club, but young adult numbers are noticeably down year on year since my first rally only a few years ago in Crieff, where a major motivation for attending was to socialise with a young group out of which only Amy and I remain active within the club.

Jack.

[Tony Fearn]

There is it seems a gap for the 18-40s, worryingly this is becoming a gap for the 18-45s or even the 18-50s. As a club this is becoming an elephant in the room in my opinion. We are busy keeping cars on the road, saving used spares, co-ordinating a busy diary of events, but whatever we (you, me and everyone else) are doing is not attracting the under-40s to the rallies and the JCC in general. Jack.

This can't be happening to the Jowett Club alone.

Could it be that our Jowetts are now out of the price range of most 18 - 50 year old enthusiasts? Who would believe that 20 years ago you couldn't give Javelins, and even Jupiters away.
I reckon that taking an average value of £15,000 for each Jupiter alone, present at the Welsh Rally, there must have been around £300,000's worth on the field.
The Javelins at a very conservative £5,000 each must have totalled £150,000, and the Bradfords, and pre-war and vintage vehicles would have taken the total up towards three quarters of a million poundsworth of Jowetts.
I'll bet the majority of our members have had their vehicles for some time, and bought them when prices were relatively conservative. The core of our membership has always been the working man/woman. So what are the majority of today's workers going to spend their money on? You can have my 1962 Sunbeam Rapier IIIA for £2000!

Has the FBHVC ever discussed this in general in recent years, and if anyone knows that the answer is yes, please share it with us.

Tony.

[Forumadmin]

I have been looking through the 1971 and 1972 Jowetteers to see how JAW was handled then and trying to find out how much it cost. I do know that the events at this time were not only in one hotel and the majority of people were scattered in various hotels or camped. 115 people attended the dinner dance in 1971 and a special price for the dinner/dance for school children was £1.45 reduced by 50p from the adult rate! The club sub was £2. Most people with families camped and my first dozen JAWs were not in hotels as they cost £10 a night which was 1 % of my salary.

My first Jowett cost £100 but was in a condition only just fit for the road. 8% of my salary at the time. Such a car would probably cost £2000 today. A reasonable car would cost about £700 which was 60% of my yearly salary.

A graduate salary today is about £30000, so 60% would be £18000 and 8% £2400, so not much has changed. By comparison the hotel cost should be £300 per night. Cost is not the issue, as this year's event (£150 per night) was well below (half) the relative cost as it was 40 years ago.

The problem is that expectations and standards have changed. Now people expect service NOW rather than doing it themselves or waiting until they can afford it. Some expect hotels to have swimming pools and massage facilities.

Cars were still a luxury in 1970, now many having a second car to go with their company car. We need to encourage people to "enjoy getting your hands dirty on a Jowett", like Peter did when under instruction servicing his car or dismantling the garage find. So see this happening at Basingstoke next year.

By the way some next door neighbours (in their 50s) set off for a camping week in a tent in Wales yesterday. Reminds me of Baildon Moor in Bradford and the Lake District Rally where storms were part of the event!

[Jack]

This can't be happening to the Jowett Club alone.

Could it be that our Jowetts are now out of the price range of most 18 - 50 year old enthusiasts? Who would believe that 20 years ago you couldn't give Javelins, and even Jupiters away.
I reckon that taking an average value of £15,000 for each Jupiter alone, present at the Welsh Rally, there must have been around £300,000's worth on the field.
The Javelins at a very conservative £5,000 each must have totalled £150,000, and the Bradfords, and pre-war and vintage vehicles would have taken the total up towards three quarters of a million poundsworth of Jowetts.
I'll bet the majority of our members have had their vehicles for some time, and bought them when prices were relatively conservative. The core of our membership has always been the working man/woman. So what are the majority of today's workers going to spend their money on? You can have my 1962 Sunbeam Rapier IIIA for £2000!

Has the FBHVC ever discussed this in general in recent years, and if anyone knows that the answer is yes, please share it with us.

Tony.

Hi Tony,

I think the reality is that there are thousands of young people buying and working on classic cars every year. A Javelin that can carry 4 people very comfortably for a weekend, with free tax and very cheap insurance being available for £5-£7K (in reasonable if not concours condition with MOT and a good engine) is one of the cheapest and most practical classic cars on the market, with good support for parts and assistance across the country.

Cost is not anywhere near as big a factor as perhaps we think - as a fresh graduate, earning £20K a year, I managed to do 100 dives in a year most years. This is relevant because diving is not a cheap hobby by any stretch, with boats, petrol, equipment and other costs adding up to an average of approximately £50 per dive minimum (and that is going some, normally closer to £200 for a weekend). That is £5K a year (after tax) on one hobby, 1/4 of my salary. I ate cheap food, I lived in a shared house, and I didn't have the money to go on fancy ski trips or a sunny holiday in the summer, so that I could do what I wanted to do every weekend. After getting a bit of experience and getting a better paid job, I have been a member of a few dive clubs with hundreds of young professionals with huge sums to fund their hobby - £5K for a Javelin is really small fry compared to the price of some of the widely used diving equipment in these clubs, where rebreather units costing £5-£10K are now commonplace.

Ironically, I need to watch the finances much more now that I have a mortgage and other commitments than I did as a carefree twentysomething with a parental safety net. I think a Javelin would probably have been more reliable than the series of truly awful vehicles that I owned through those years as well.

One of the things that troubles me is that we, as a club, don't really know with any certainty why there are less and less young people at the rallies, and we suspect in the wider active club membership. We don't know if we are the only club with this problem, whether classic car clubs in general all have this problem at one time or another, and whether we are losing members to other clubs, other cars, or other activities and priorities in life.

I do however feel that £400+ is a huge amount of money for one weekend for anyone, and that the cost of rallies is an issue that needs to be addressed. If our membership really is the average working man/woman, that is not an affordable amount. There is a real danger that for that price Amy and I could be on a beach in the Mediterranean for a long weekend. Perhaps the club needs a more cost effective event later in the summer to cater for this - for example several of us are attending the Silverstone Classic, a huge event at which pretty much everyone is camping or caravanning for 3 days. The entire event, including scenic run and laps on the circuit, rock concerts every night with big stars, comes to £165 for two people and one car. The North West Section runs a very enjoyable weekend every year that I have attended (with tent) at less than half the cost of the annual weekend, perhaps this could be a model that we can work from - several members stayed in motorhomes and local B&Bs, with one central location and meeting point they were no less involved than those of us on site throughout.

Jack.

[ian Howell]

Am I one of the few people that remember events such as Gymkhanas that my memory tells me we held three or four times a year (in the Southern Section anyway) and probably more often elsewhere.

I have recollections of one at Blindley Heath (near Gatwick) and I did a little one on a farm near me in Chailey (Mid-Sussex). PJGD may be able to add a few more? I also went to Noggin and Natter meetings at The Green Man, Ealing and someones (whose?) home in Luton (where I put my foot in it over Ken Lees 'racing' Javelin!).

These didn't cost much - possibly the hire of the field (mine cost a bottle of whisky!) and then fuel costs.

Ah yes, fuel. Even at 30 mpg for a Javelin, fuel might be a significant factor today. Ealing and back was about 4 gallons for me. 18 plus litres at £1.35 (if you're lucky) means £25 for an evening - before 'refreshments'!.

As for the age factor, when I was involved with the Bexhill 100 events we always found an incredible level of interest, committment and enthusiasm from the 'young generation', being (say) 8 to 16 year olds. After our first year, our volunteer marshalls were largely 15 to 20 year olds who came back year after year, without pay (they did get free tee-shirts, baseball caps, burgers and such - well sometimes) but with the promise, usually fulfilled, of a ride in any of the vehicles entered that they fancied.

The entrants too fully entered into the spirit of the shows, even those with exotic (and very rare/ precious/ expensive) machines. Perhaps we need to engage more with this age group at non-Jowett events such as local shows. Look at the response from the Jupiter's win at the Classic Car Show. OK so most of it was from wishful thinkers, but the young generation are often overlooked in the excitement of major - and minor - events. Perhaps a few hand-outs -there is one in the Gallery you know! - and including one of Paul Beaumont's excellent quizzes?

Could it also be a matter of geography? In the Southern Section we are spread from Margate to Hampshire and from Sussex to Hertfordshire (and maybe further?). With London 'in the way' this makes it difficult to find a venue within striking distance of enough members to make even an evening out worthwhile. But the Scottish Section seems to manage OK!

I hope this might prompt a few worthwhile comments. We shall see . . .

[george garside]

I agree with Jacks comment aout £400 for a weekend being beyond the range of many members, a very substantial proportion of who are retired and whilst not on ther 'beam ends' do have to give careful consideration to the 'opportunity cost' of the event . i.e. as Jack has pointed out what would that amount of money provide that " her indoors of a non Jowett disposition " may prefer or even demand. Instead of 'taking over ' a hotel for the weekend along with aa posh dinner & perhaps entertainent could we not consider simply hiring a large 'function room' with bar ( or getting one free 'cos of the brass going over the bar) for the main evening event, possibly with bar food for those who want it. Ideally this would be in an area where 'digs' would be available at a awide range of prices and include a reasonably nearby campsite . Such a gathering wold not anly be much cheaper but would allow a far greater degree of verbal intercourse than can be conducted in a formal dining setting. Formal speaches ( if compulsory) and presentations could still take place .

The main 'field' event venue could probably be got for free by 'selling the idea of it being a tourist attraction to the appropriate local aautoity eg use of a park or whatever.

A bonus of such simplification would of course be a considerable reduction in the amount of organisational input required which would increase the sustainablity of an annual club bash.

I was involved in the organisation of the first national jowett day in Bradford which was a one day event in a farmers field - everybody who attended thought it was wonderful and the 'organisation' was of such depth that we even carried out an inspection of the nearest public ladies lavatory which wss just down the road. I kept lookout while Gordon brook sneaked in and carried out a quick inspection!

george

[Jack]

To add to the discussion around pricing, I raised this with the Exec at the recent meeting. Note that we do not have much influence at this point over the price of the Basingstoke rally, with arrangements made and bookings being taken, however either a cheaper option or a lower overall cost was requested for the 2014 rally for the reasons above.

From informal discussion with one or two members the cost of rallies is a significant financial outlay for them - effectively attending the JAW means they have to put £35 every month into a pot just to pay for the rally weekend each year. If we are a club for the average man or woman, that is a significant proportion of the average wage in this country - and a very significant proportion of a modest pension.

Jack.

[AlanBartlett]

You talk about the pricing of the rally package, i think alot of the time is fair certainly in recent ones I have been to. But have been noticing a creep up, but i think this is down to overall needs of the club members. Jack you say about £400 for the rally is quite a lot. Yes I do agree in some instances, but when your also talking about age gaps from the elder to younger for that price, other people my age would be at a concert or festival for the weekend considerably less money and inclusive of camping, not a hotel event. But because the overall club is undoubtly getting older some people probably cannot or do not want the hassle of camping, pitching a tent and setting yourself up, where as a hotel the room is there all made up. Perhaps standards have changed. i know we used to camp or bnb a lot of the time in the past. Just a quick musing before work will post more later.

[Peter Holden]

Over the years the annual rally has got bigger and better and has dictated the type of hotel we use because of the facilities they can offer. I think there is an unwritten and unnecessary desire to do better than last year by the organisers, rather than trying something completely different, who do not want to be seen as the organisers of ‘That Rally.’ Hence I think that is why there are fewer people jumping in and volunteering to organise a rally. That I think is a shame and could be the first signs of the end of the club!

The majority of people only need a place to sleep, outside of the evening events. In the past there were quite a number of the younger members that camped, often before children arrived. On the camp site there was often a very good social scene, particularly when dry. Leeds Castle was an exception, it was wet. On another occasion the area we went did not have a hotel to accommodate everybody, so people were spread about in various B&B’s and were mini bussed to and from the evening events.

The club has tried in the past to reduce the costs. Bristol was a fine example when the large evening entertainment was held in a marquee in the hotel garden. It did not go down very well because it was a bitter cold night, but the concept was fine.

Whoever organises the rally will always base it on their standards and expectations. The majority of rallies are all organised by the older elements of the club. Some of which are well shod and others not so well. The common desire is comfort for aching bones and hence the posh Hotel.

Now if we want to keep the total costs down, and within those costs I think we should include all the expenses for attending an event then we need to look at the rally carefully. 2013 (90 years of the club) is well advanced, 2014 there are murmurings but nothing is yet considered for 2015. Should we be radical and change the concept?
Yes let’s go back to basics, the farmers field, tenting and B&B’s, marquee for the evenings with barrels of the farmers cider. I am sure some of the older members will be able to dig out their Scout and Guide uniforms! Who will put there neck on the line to organise such an event? It has to be the younger element after all it is their responsibility to carry the club forward.

Volunteers please report to the chairman.

[Keith Clements]

Forumadmin said:

I have been looking through the 1971 and 1972 Jowetteers to see how JAW was handled then and trying to find out how much it cost. I do know that the events at this time were not only in one hotel and the majority of people were scattered in various hotels or camped. 115 people attended the dinner dance in 1971 and a special price for the dinner/dance for school children was £1.45 reduced by 50p from the adult rate! The club sub was £2. Most people with families camped and my first dozen JAWs were not in hotels as they cost £10 a night which was 1 % of my salary.

My first Jowett cost £100 but was in a condition only just fit for the road. 8% of my salary at the time. Such a car would probably cost £2000 today. A reasonable car would cost about £700 which was 60% of my yearly salary.

A graduate salary today is about £30000, so 60% would be £18000 and 8% £2400, so not much has changed. By comparison the hotel cost should be £300 per night. Cost is not the issue, as this year's event (£150 per night) was well below (half) the relative cost as it was 40 years ago.

I think pensioners are better off now on average than pensioners were in 1970 and so are each of the younger decades, it is just they choose to spend their money on other things to keep their higher standard of living.

We have moved each year towards the job of filling a hotel; primarily to contract to book it for our specific weekend, but also to have a more organised and central get together. Bristol was a great idea, but the weather destroyed it. Our campsite was flooded. Unfortunately the British weather has killed any such idea resurfacing. Wales and Wakefield would both have been disasters in a tent.

Everyone has the choice not to stay in the designated hotel and only attend the functions they want. Local tourist offices and camping clubs are available to help people make their own decisions. If anyone wants to volunteer to select and promote a campsite or alternative accomodation or set up an alternative entertainment, such as a Jowett campfire or Morris dancing then please come forward. In Aus the barby can provide the food and the entertainment can pretty much be guaranteed good weather outside, but in the UK?

Personally, another reason we stopped camping or going to cheaper accomodation was the problem of travelling back from the functions. I still camp at Goodwood where everything is on site, but it takes one hell of a lot of organising, and it can be dismal if the weather is poor. Also packing all the camping stuff in a Jup is a bit of a struggle!

[Jack]

Perhaps an option to consider might be a hotel that has a facility for caravans, camping, and other lower cost options - I know many club members have vehicles for camping weekends, us included, and would be happy to spend a rally weekend sleeping there if there was a significant discount for doing so.

However that might add one more thing to the list of requirements for any potential rally location - though facilities like this do exist, a central hotel with conference facilities surrounded by large grounds that have a caravan park or cottages for smaller budgets. Currently to run a rally we need 100 rooms (especially if we are going to expand as a club in future) and all of the other "essentials" from the list - maybe easier to find a hotel with 50 rooms but chalet type accommodation for families and younger groups to socialise between the day's events and dinner, and for some of us perhaps once the bar closes, as well as a large function room or hall that is often found on such sites for weddings and similar occasions.

Jack.

[Forumadmin]

I think it unlikely a hotel would encourage camping, but some motels might offer both. The one we hope to stay in Estonia does; but that is a bit far for JAW.

[M S G Benning]

The proverbial 'Home thoughts' to add to this debate:
1) If you don't want to stay in the hotel, ASK the organising committe about B&B's/Camping Facs in the area - or look on internet! When I was introduced to an NJR (Powis 1989?) by my late father in law, they arrived early with their tent & we arrived after work on the Friday with our caravan. the 1st rally we 'hotelled it' was Pitlochry 2000. I decided it was easier with Geoff to book in, so he could go back to room when he got bored/tired without interrupting our evening.
2) Perhaps, as Peter says, we need to break the mould. This happened to a degree at this years rally & seemed to go down very well. Why not go even further, dispense with a scenic run - we all drive to these rallies anyway & it would save on a lot of 'red tape' about routes/breakdown cover etc. Have the static in the hotel car park - the concours judging could be done on the sunday morning. Arrive on a saturday, leave on a monday, can anyone remember when & why the weekend 'stretched'?
3) I agree expectations have risen & we are non of us getting any younger, but lets STOP trying to outdo the previous years rally committe & just enjoy the fact that at least once a year we can all gather & appreciate our cars & the FRIENDSHIPS made over the years

[Keith Clements]

Good comment. Please keep them coming and solicit thoughts from others not connected to JowettTalk and please post.
Please can you also say what you particularly liked about the last and previous weekends?
The extension of the original concours day to up to 4 days of entertainment was fuelled by the desire to make the long journeys made by some to be worthwhile.
You can still just come for parts of the programme!

[p.p.]

for the family with small kids a kids room with a kids nurse - so mum and dad have a free time...... the room also for dinner... kids food ( spaghetti, burger and and....) maybe a clown......
for thr jowetter women, insted knitting and reading or sleeping in the cars.... a nice programm ( shopping, museeum, the and cake's ......)
and for me : old english songs with a piano in the bar......swing-fox, walz and salsa.....i'm a romantic jowetter

peter