SC on ebay

[Forumadmin]

This SC does not appear in the current JOAC Register.
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1953-JOWETT-JUPIT ... 43a43fe0a0

[Jack]

"A FULLY RESTORED SC MODEL WOULD COMMAND A PRICE OF £25,000+ (WITHOUT THE NUMBER PLATE)" - Reg no is JJU 655.

Opinions? I've not seen an SC for sale for anything like that (or any other Jupiter for that matter), but then they don't come up for sale all that often. Perhaps at a dealer, fully nut and bolt restored with a full history file it might get close, if prices have climbed to this leve I guess that's a good thing for owners.

Looks like a nice car though - can't see the hood up in any of the photos, wonder whether it is in good condition - as we know restoring a hood isn't the easiest job!

Keith - interesting that it's not in the JOAC register, if you look in the last photo they have rally plates from JOAC in 1987 and some others - I can't make out the detail easily. Perhaps worth us getting in touch to get the chassis numbers etc, and having a good look around the car if anyone is too far away to view themselves? Could also pass on club info for the new owners. Car is in Harlow apparently.

Jack.

[Peter Holden]

Jack
The car is known in club circles. It was advertised in the last Jowetteer! Don't you read it?
The advert implies it requires work doing to it. The questions raised by interested parties seem to have produced rather vague responses from the seller. If you are interested in it then I would recommend to go and see it before bidding. I have seen items for sale in auction catalogues and when looking at the photos have looked quite respectable, but in the flesh a different matter.
I suspect it is now in the hands of a dealer who is either selling on a commision or who wants to make a fast buck???

[Jack]

Hi Peter,

I don't tend to go through the For Sale section when it comes through - we've got too many cars as it is and easiest to avoid temptation!

Not personally interested, just thought if someone else was we could go and have a poke around and get any car data required for the various registers.

I know what you mean about deceptive photos - especially on ebay there are cars that can look very different to what they really are underneath.

Jack.

[conrod]

I saw the car about 5 years ago with the intention of buying. It needed then extensive repairs to the scuttle on the near side, particularly the rear wing.
It also had an overdraft fitted - sorry mean't to say overdrive fitted
There is reference to the floor needing repair, but does not say which floor !
I have emailed the ''ebayer'' making reference to the above and asking if this has been repaired - he just replied, why did you not buy it?
In my opinion, the person who buys the car should be under no illusion that it will take considerable work to get back on the road.
In saying that, it is nice to see that another Jupiter has a chance to return to where it should be - back on the road and usable !

[Chris Spencer]

I can confirm Peter's assumptions that the car is now with a dealer - it changed hands recently for circa £8k so I have little doubt that the ebay reserve will be touted at £10k plus - that's a lot of money for a unrestored car - you could easily double that amount with restoration costs. It would have be exceptional & concours to gain the £25k of 'when restored' value that the dealer is taunting the bidders with !

[Andy Stevens]

If restored SC's were worth £25,000 i might have to pull my finger out and finish restoring mine.....but as i dont think they are i needn't worry!

[Peter Holden]

Well if this dealer has paid about £8k for an unrestored Jupiter, even if it is an SC, then I suggest he has paid the top line or even over the odds for it! Like all dealers they pump up the values to there own gains. It is the people that buy them that loose out. Look at the art world! Are the works of, say Damien Hurst, worth what people pay for them? I don’t think so! The uninformed punter is sold an idea that the item is worth so many pounds and is a ‘good investment and will increase in value’. This works when the dealer is telling the next punter that ‘you missed a really good opportunity with that art work, if it comes on the market then I would recommend you buy it’. At the same time the dealer is telling the purchaser that he has a ‘good deal and it will be worth considering selling as they are bound to make a profit.’ OK, call me cynical!!

If Amy was to sell here SC, which I very much doubt she will, would she get the promised £25k? I doubt it!! To attain the standard of finish, attained by Amy’s management and her team of slaves, sorry lads I meant helpers, then on a commercial scale the cost would have exceeded the ultimate value!!

So you buy the car for £8k and assuming you have the services of professionals then I would suggest the cost could be in the order of;
A engine rebuild will cost say £5k, retrim the seats and panels say £3k, respray say £5k, any panel work could be any thing from £1 to £5k or over, lets say £3k, a new hood say £2k, brakes and general service repairs etc say £2k. Grand total £28k. Made a loss!!!!! These figures are pure guess work but perhaps Amy might be able to present more accurate costs.

OK so the enthusiast, who restores the car himself, and has enjoyment in doing so, could cut the costs by half. If not more!

I am a little bit concerned of prices rising. I accept the fact that owners want a true valuation, if for no other reason for insurance. But over inflated values will put the cars out of the reach of the younger generation who develop an interest in restoring, maintaining and more importantly driving and enjoying the cars. That is what the cars were built for and it is also part of the clubs constitution. I personally would not want to see Jupiters confined to museums and private collection bought for the sole purpose of an investment.

In short, my advise to Andy is to get his car running and ENJOY IT and forget about the value.

[Forumadmin]

Try comparing the prices of similar rare cars where less than 100 were made, beautiful cars like the XK120 , similar classics like a Healey, unusual cars, cars with racing history, or just plain 1940 or 1950 classics. I really do think that £8k on such a car would be a good investment.

I accept that the Jowett marque may not command as much esteem as Jaguar or Austin; but that could change and will, if we market the marque more strongly. We must do so, otherwise, as Peter says, it is not economical to restore and we will loose many examples. There is a risk that we might loose the family atmosphere of the club and cars will dissappear to museums, but without some rise in value you will not get the injection of capital or more importantly incentive to get and keep these cars.

Many spend upwards of £50000 on a car to get some individuality only to see £15000 of that evaporate in 1 year on 'depreciation'. Surely spending the money on this car and paying someone £15000 to restore it is money well spent.

The problem for any buyer is that few Jowett owners actually want to sell their cars, whether for 10, 20 or £30,000!

To answer Jack's point, very few SCs have changed hands. They probably command £5000 more value than an SA. SAs have changed hands for over £20000 and usually go for £15000 to £17000.

[Jack]

I think if we had charged our labour at minimum wage (which a garage clearly wouldn't, but then they'd probably work a bit quicker than us on some jobs) the restoration would have cost something like £20K in labour, excluding parts, work like the chroming which had to go to someone else, and it's not done yet.

To view the restoration of our cars as a commercial exercise seems to take a bit from it in my eyes - but I think the cars have enough history that scrapping or breaking one for spares would be fairly unlikely now, though possible in fairly recent history. Some Javelins for example are so far from economical repair that it doesn't make a lot of sense to fully restore a car which is falling to pieces, now even rusty cars missing a lot of parts seem to be game for restoration.

To compare with other marques, I see friends in the Capri scene who restore a 1.6 Laser, millions of which were made, and spend thousands of hours rebuilding their cars because they don't want to see it go to the scrap man. So for as long as there are people prepared to do the work themselves, they will be rewarded with owning a car which is undervalued so can be bought for not a lot of money, and they can enjoy for years to come and pass on to further generations.

Will there ever be a point at which commercial restoration of Jowetts is viable? Some day in the future, as the cars become even more rare, and values gradually climb, perhaps. Right now, the evidence is clear - dealers are not having the work done themselves, because the difference between an unrestored and fully restored example isn't great enough for them to make a profit. The limited commercial restoration and value of the cars also influences companies catering for us, manufacturing new replacement parts, creating products suitable for the marque, but then having spent some time with owners of very high value marques, Rolls Royce, Bugatti, even Jaguar and similar, I'd rather have a car that on paper is worth less and has the kind of club we have (where literally anyone within reason can afford to buy a car and get involved) than the alternative - a club that you can't buy your way into for less than £100K...

Andy, from the comments Keith has made, even if a little optimistic in my opinion, it sounds like SCs are getting over the £20K mark, only a few years and we may see them creep up further - they certainly don't seem to come up for sale often. Only a few months to the rally, set yourself a deadline and put out the call for help! Anything we can do just shout, I'm sure you've seen what we went through over the last year or so.

From an outsiders point of view, following a lot of discussion at my work about the car (many voted for the Classic Car of the Year competition and have seen the articles in PC and similar) the guys that see photos and articles simply cannot believe that you could buy a car in the condition our SC is in - freshly restored, with only a few jobs left to do - for £20K, let alone less than that. They do not see a difference between our car and a classic Jag, Healey or similar, they just see a very pretty and old car that is very rare, and imagine it would cost £50K-£100K as a result.

Jack.

[Forumadmin]

Jack, Your last sentence is the point. Would they get their cheque book out? Possibly...
Price is all about desire.

[Andy Stevens]

SC went for £12665.......nice profit for the dealer. I wonder whether the car will reappear in club circles?

As to my Jupiter, I dont care whether it is worth £25000 or £250 - I bought it because I like the car and not because i wanted to make money. As to a restoration completion date I intend to complete it quicker than Team SC but that still gives me another 22 years!!!

[Peter Holden]

OK then, so an SC may be worth £25k! They produced 80 of them. What then are the special bodied cars worth? After all there is often only 1 of any particular design. Far rarer than an SC. Does that mean my car is worth more than £25k. Should I be thinking of insuring mine for that?

[Forumadmin]

The fact that it is a special usually detracts from its price unless there is some 'valuable' history such as racing e.g. the R1 which may well be worth £40k. The R4s for instance may not be worth as much as an SC. Who knows, we may find out when they are sold.

The reason for putting more value on an SA over an SC is not solely because of the number made, but the changes between the models.

Regarding insurance, I would see how much FJ will go to with agreed value. You will need an estimate from a trusted source. We should make sure we have informed estimators who do not just rely on old knowledge.

Auction values may not be the most accurate measurement as many cars are sold privately.

LOOK SOMEONE HAS JUST PAID OVER £12K FOR SOMETHING WHICH SOME OF YOU THOUGHT WAS WORTH LESS THAN £8K. THAT IS 50% MORE THAN ITS PREVIOUS VALUE. I ALSO PRESUME THAT A NUMBER OF BIDDERS THOUGHT IT WAS WORTH MORE THAN £10K.

TAKE THE CAR TO A CAR AUCTION AND SEE WHAT YOU WOULD GET.

Should Amy ask the dealer for commission as her publicity has boosted its value?

[Chris Spencer]

Just to answer some questions raised in the postings for this subject:

Amy's SC had a relativly small sum spent on the restoration, but had several thousand hours put into it by hereslf, Keith, Jack, myself and various club members & friends. You need to also take into account the vast stock of parts (new and old) that we had at our disposal that Keith had squirreled away over the last 30 + years.

However- I beleive that if the car went to the market today (and I can assure you that you stand a better chance of buying chocolate fire guards than it being put up for sale) - with it's award winning history it would easily command a price of mid £20k (especially at auction)

In essence anything is worth has much as the buyer wants to pay for it - but the largest point proved in this case is the requirement for the club to appeal to prospective new members. Obviously someone has been willing to pay a high price for a SC requiring restoration - yet had the purchaser joined the club first and enquired that they were keen to purchase a Jupiter restoration / or even looked on the adverts page in the December Jowetteer - the purchaser would have saved a whopping £4,500 !!!!!