Javelin swivel pin excess play

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 7:51 pm

Thanks everyone for your help and advice on my Javelin brake problem.
I've ALMOST sorted this, as I have reported elsewhere on the website however here is another little problem I would appreciate help and advice on. I realise I am in danger of becoming a total bore but where else can I seek advice?

Whilst working on the nearside hub I discovered excess 'up and down' play in the nearside swivel pin. There is no play on the offside so at least I only have a problem on one side!

I've looked at the manual and am always sceptical when instructions make jobs look so easy. I'd be grateful for any hints and tips re tackling this job.

Things like:
What parts am I likely to need to replace?
How do you detach the yoke? (since that top nut looks a devil of a job to get a spanner to!)
What am I likely to have a problem with eg what will/may be difficult to remove without destroying it thus requiring a replacement? (don't forget this is my car we're talking about where ANYTHING can be a problem!)
How do you decide in advance what size of swivel pin shim you require (part number 52591)?

Thanks in anticipation.

Paul
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Keith Andrews · Post by **Keith Andrews** » Fri Sep 08, 2006 9:35 pm

I realise I am in danger of becoming a total bore but where else can I seek advice?

NO! that is what that site is for..then as the site 'matures' when someone uses the seach buttons above..the site becomes a reference...not as a manal, but more as a advanced 'hands on' tricks of the trade reference.

I havnt pulled a Javlin apart..and just learning Bradfords myself..And have a dood reference libarary here, and a great support from NZ club members, these forums and the members are an enormus help.
Steps

ian Howell · Post by **ian Howell** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 11:53 am

I haven't done this job lately, but just to keep you amused - and to let you know not everyone is bored!, try this: -

You can get an idea of the amount of lift, with feeler guages. Subtract the recommended clearance and that gives you the shim thickness. But read on . .

With the weight of the car off the suspension (jacks / blocks under chassis), but with the lower arm supported (very thoroughly) remove the rubber covers and then the cross bolt at the top of the 'Y' piece. There is a loose sleeve in one arm of the 'Y', don't lose it.

The 'tricky' nut at the top of the swivel pin is then easy to access with a socket. As I say, I haven't done this for some time, but I don't think it was particularly tricky.

Then of course, the hub assembly can be lifted off the swivel pin - I think this can be done with the brake hose still in place, but I am not sure.

Check the grooved thick washer for wear (usually bad as they can get rusty), replace if necessary and check grease channels, add the shims, 'box up', and check the clearances.

Wait for confirmation before you commit, but I think there is nothing to be frightened of!

Good luck.

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Sat Sep 09, 2006 7:08 pm

Thanks for the reassurance, Ian. Remember I'm no engineer so what might seem straight forward to you mechanics/engineers might not be so for me, nevertheless your reassurance is welcome!

Perhaps I should have mentioned the fact that the front suspension is of the earlier type. I am not sure how readily available parts are for this ot how differnt removal is.

How about the top and bottom bolts and nuts? Are they likely to cause trouble in people's experience ie are they likely to require cutting rather than simple removal with spanners? What problems have others experienced if any?

Thanks for your patience, everybody.

Regards

Paul

Post by **Forumadmin** » Sun Sep 10, 2006 10:15 am

The shims needed are washer shaped, and come in different thicknesses. Make sure you clean all parts and check them for wear while you have the suspension apart. Check the bottom swivel pin, both king pin bearings, yoke and screw and the rubber boots. Some members have added extra grease nipples to the king pin to evenly apply grease. Also dismantle the upper link bearings and the oil reservoir. Very few of these are in good working order on Javelins or Jups.
Once all this is done you will have superb suspension and steering.

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 11:15 am

Thanks for this so far. I wonder if you can confirm some aspects for me.

Ian (thanks Ian) has said "Then of course, the hub assembly can be lifted off the swivel pin". Having looked at the suspension in greater detail it appears to me that by lifting the hub assembly off the swivel pin then the steering linkages will obviously want to follow and be lifted up with the hub!

My questions are:

Is this a problem? Won't it put strain on the steering linkages?
Therefore do I have to disconnect the steering linkage?
If 'yes' where is the best place to disconnect?

Ian also thought the job can be done with the brake hose still in place but he wasn't sure.

Can anyone who has done this job more recently please let me know and fill in the blanks for me re my questions above?

Thanks for your patience

Paul

ian Howell · Post by **ian Howell** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 6:41 pm

Ian again . .

Yersse, well it is a long time since I did it!

You have to be careful about where to disconnect the steering links.

The ball joint in the arm attached to the hub is an obvious choice, BUT the height of the ball above the arm is critical and the wrong setting can lead to 'jamming' on extreme lock, as well as affecting the steering geometry.

Count the number of turns to remove it (after you loosen the clamp bolt) and refit to the same setting afterwards,

BUT there is no guarantee that the present setting is correct.

Likewise the track rod.

I assume you haven't got the Maintenance Manual? These are often advertised on ebay and are a worthwhile investment - at the right price!

Have a look on www.jonero.freeserve.co.uk/Handbooks/Javelin and see page 96 for a start.

Keep on keeping on!

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Tue Sep 19, 2006 9:03 pm

Thanks Ian.

Yes I do have a maintenance manual and a parts book but I am always wary of where jobs seem too straight forward! Added to this, there is NO mention of removing the steering arm from the hub assembly (Chapter 8 page 84). I therefore welcome the advice of members who have found the little tricks which the manual doesn't mention!

Ian, am I correct in assuming that when you talk of separating the steering from the hub we are talking about:
removing the ball joint locknut, the spring retaining nut, the steering ball spring, the ball pressure pad and the steering ball and releasing the steering arm setscrew thus separating the steering socket housing from the steering arm (see parts book page 18-19- PD model)?

Although mine is a PD it has the earlier suspension.

Sorry for the additional questions Ian (and any other members who can offer advice and comment) but I don't want to make a total mess of something which everyone tells me is quite a straight forward job(?!)

Thanks

Paul

Post by **Forumadmin** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:15 am

It should be possible to do what you want without disconnecting the steering. If you need to remove the stub axle to do some work on it(1082 on http://jowett.org/jowettnet/dt/parts/1952book/20.pdf )
then the steering arm can be removed (996 on http://jowett.org/jowettnet/dt/parts/1952book/18.pdf )
These diagrams are for the rubber suspension not your metal one.
Like a lot of things such removal may need a good mallet to split the taper on the joint. Alternatively do what Pat says.

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 10:23 pm

Thanks chaps. Just to be absolutely certain(!)......(and I DO realise that for those of you who have tackled lots of major work on Jowetts I am asking a lot of stupid questions)....
I refer to page 18 of the parts list. I assume by 'pinch bolt', Pat, we are talking about the bolt which goes through the steering socket housing (part 54013) at the end of the steering rod (part 50566). If this is the case then do I rotate the steering rod out of the socket (having counted the number of threads first, of course!)?

Do I need to disconnect the brake hose?

Sorry for this lengthy correspondence. Please bear with me!

Paul

Tony Fearn · Post by **Tony Fearn** » Wed Sep 20, 2006 11:24 pm

Hi Paul.

I don't think you have to worry about refining your understanding of what you need to do to make your car as safe as it could be. That's what this site is all about.

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Thu Sep 21, 2006 3:30 pm

Thanks for this. One more thing (and I should have mentioned this before) the car has been in my ownership since 1967 and I have religiously greased all suspension and steering joints even though the car has been off the road for the past 30years.

The swivel pin wear appears to be only "up and down" and not "side to side" or "front to back". Could I get away (for MOT purposes) with simply removing the top thrust washer and replacing with a new one to cut out the "up and down" movement, do you think? I know the purists amongst you won't like this approach but whilst there is no other movement of the swivel pin I wonder if I am going "over the top" by disturbing something which works okay (apart from the movement up and down). I would hate to disturb things and make them worse.

Any thoughts please?

Thanks

Paul

paul wilks · Post by **paul wilks** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 4:21 pm

Crumbs it is Pat and thanks for all your advice- I do appreciate and value it. You can appreciate that having set to with a renewed enthusiasm after the Bingley Rally these set backs are somewhat draining. It is like painting the Forth Bridge isn't it? I know when I lie under the car that she is very sound (chassis is excellent) but that she might fail the MOT on something I've missed. My main objective is to get her running (and stopping!) and then to see what the MOT throws up. I'll then be able to see what is needed to be done and whether it is beyond me!

Thanks for the advice and support.

Paul

Drummond Black · Post by **Drummond Black** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:46 pm

Now that you mention the Forth Bridge then I must step in. The Forth Bridge is now being specially shot blasted and painted to a spec that will last for ten to fifteen years at least. Modern materials do have advantages. I do not think you are encountering any additional problems that face the average Javelin or Jupiter owner. Just a bit of time,knowledge and effort to rectify the problems. The advice you are receiving is of a high standard and from respected sources. Good luck with your MOT. If it fails first time then do not get dismayed, you will then have specific area(s) to concentrate on AND the advice is available to help rectify any faults found. We have all been through it.

Drummond

Keith Andrews · Post by **Keith Andrews** » Fri Sep 22, 2006 8:57 pm

I mean this with all due respect ....
Im a ex hot rodder...with a history of high hp and heavy cars...hence I (Rodders) frown on the general philosphy of the general old classic guys who tend to patch rather than rebuild.
With hp of rods Anything suspect in brakes suspention steering etc, has seen us bury colleges over the yrs.
Pre runs and races, the cars may have a MoT (or as in NZ WoF ) but still have to pass scrutineering.
MoT ans WoF are not just a certificate one must pass and a hassle...they are there to stop ppl dieing.

If u suspect a component, dismantle, check physical wear, replace or rebuild...At the end of the day, doing so saves a lot of time, and money, thu intially it may seem an excessive cost in the long run, it works out cheap.

I donot like working on cars....sounds suprising?
I am lazy.
To be lazy is a 'art'....
If something is not right fix/rebuild it back to factory or better, once. Then forget it for the next 20 yrs or so.

The braddy I purchase a while back passed A WoF....yet I have rebuilt/replaced the axles, suspension, brakes, gearbox, wiring, clutch, pressure plate.
and work in progress...steering box, diff, engine.
These have all new bearings, bushes, kingpins....
Sure so far have outlaid near on a grand NZ$ and expect another 200 to 300 over 6 months.
At the end of it the running gear will not need anything more than grease and maintaince for a long time.
Once this is completed the body work, panel paint will start.
Sure a car thats pretty looks good, brings the complments, and does well in the show and shine...BUT I see so many of these are no more than superfical as the running gear/drive train sucks. They are not relaxing to drive and are potentually dangerous.

My Camaro in '86 I replaced anyting that could possibly wear, if it was worn or not...since then and nearly 150, 000 miles later, other than a few tyres, batteries, a tie rod end and brake hoses..minor stuff, I can go out and drive it where and when I like without concern...and will be able to do so for the next 20 odd yrs.
This is what I am doing to the Braddy, and the one under resto in the garage.
Do it once do it right...and forget...I will have reached MY use by date by the time it needs doing again.

Steps

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