Disc Brakes for Javelin/Jupiter?

[Jack]

Jack - You are quickly becoming a lightweight - if you are going to do a engine swop at least make it worth the effort - whats the point of removing a 60 BHP orginal equipment engine which can be tuned to 90 BHP to replace it with something else of a 100 BHP - stick to your orginal plans - the donor vehicle has cost you peanuts. If you just want the Jav to be capable of overtaking the spoty kids Citroen Saxo on the A41 leave the original engine in and bolt a nitros kit to it.

The problem is the additional work if we put huge power through it - putting a 140bhp engine in there is as easy as a smaller engine, but then we run into a number of other problems, not least the ability of the tyres to put the power down onto the road. If I want to make spotty kids in Saxos look silly I could do that in Amy's Legacy, let alone mine

Interestingly, found this just now, which is kind of where this is heading.



Using the original engine and tuning it up doesn't fix the problem of reliability or convenient daily use.

I think 100bhp in a car weighing 950kg is likely to be plenty quick enough for any normal road use. The engine is quick in a Legacy, and that is nearly twice that weight.

Jack.

[Keith Andrews]

putting a 140bhp engine in there is as easy as a smaller engine, but then we run into a number of other problems, not least the ability of the tyres

This sort of thing was dicussed ages ago in another thread.
Doing so is a waste of time....
Basically boils down to this you spend a lot of time, mucking around, lot of money....then die
Forget the tyres..That body, chassis is just not built to take that sort of HP be it at speed ..or where the greater damage will be done during full power take off.
As a ex hot rodder..we have a term for people who do this sort of thing Moron with a death wish.

For these old cars , the advantage of discs (even just up front) is when towing, down long hills or on the race track.
Cold drums are very effient, as they heat up they become less (long constant use as in towing and track) Disc on the other hand become a little more efficient.
Towing down long hills is where engine brake is also used....or if very long like some hills in Aussie, there are bays to pull off on to let brakes cool.
UInder normal use there is very little advantage of disc over drums in a lightweight car.

And if set on going to disc, start at the ball joints or better still, A frame mounts.

[Jack]

putting a 140bhp engine in there is as easy as a smaller engine, but then we run into a number of other problems, not least the ability of the tyres

This sort of thing was dicussed ages ago in another thread.
Doing so is a waste of time....
Basically boils down to this you spend a lot of time, mucking around, lot of money....then die
Forget the tyres..That body, chassis is just not built to take that sort of HP be it at speed ..or where the greater damage will be done during full power take off.
As a ex hot rodder..we have a term for people who do this sort of thing Moron with a death wish.

For these old cars , the advantage of discs (even just up front) is when towing, down long hills or on the race track.
Cold drums are very effient, as they heat up they become less (long constant use as in towing and track) Disc on the other hand become a little more efficient.
Towing down long hills is where engine brake is also used....or if very long like some hills in Aussie, there are bays to pull off on to let brakes cool.
UInder normal use there is very little advantage of disc over drums in a lightweight car.

And if set on going to disc, start at the ball joints or better still, A frame mounts.

Agreed - we could build a car which could handle the power, we could upgrade everything to work and be safe, but personally I don't think it would be a Javelin any more. It might look a bit like one, but instead what I am aiming for is a modernised Javelin, not a drag strip or track day car. My point about the tyres was more that putting huge amounts of power in there creates a whole list of other things we'd need to do, and it would be nice to finish the car before I'm 30 as getting it on the road is the aim.

Jack.

[Keith Andrews]

we could upgrade everything to work and be safe, but personally I don't think it would be a Javelin any more.

I disagree...I have buitt several rods over the yrs (before my Bradford days)
you coyld take a chassis, Drive line etc... say an older Rav or l200, may have to change spindle heights, width/length of the chassis etc a bit, throw /adapt a jowett body on...while at it air con, electric windows, central locking, etc
You end up with a modern handling, comfortable riding, braking , cornering car but to all intense and purposes looks like a bradford or javelin etc.

But hey, we cant go there can we? I mean , that would be scarledge...just not the thing to do...we may even be called a hot rodder who knows a bout this stuff, and hot rodders are idiots right?

OH do not confuse a Hot Rodder (Ave age now around 50/60) with a boy racer who cuts springs to lower a car.

Personally I would love to do something like the above to a Bradford van...even done rederings ..widened 12 "to accomidate a modern engine.... chopp channel to balance out the widened body ..make look right.
Some pics in an old thread couple yrs back.
It has very ompressive lines.
But lets not go there....yet.

[Moises Jr.]

I think this is a bad idea, classic cars are not to modify, and thinking of the classic competition cars would not be eligible to be modified.
This Javelin has eight cylinders, sooner or later the chassis will have problems.

[Jack]

I think this is a bad idea, classic cars are not to modify, and thinking of the classic competition cars would not be eligible to be modified.
This Javelin has eight cylinders, sooner or later the chassis will have problems.

The cat has officially just seen the pigeons

To be honest, that is very very different to what I am getting at. That is dropping a big lump in the front of a Javelin, and while it looks like some other changes have been made, the sheer weight in the front is clearly causing issues with the wheels (that angle can't be right can it?) and the handling is bound to suffer from having a V8 in the front. It wouldn't drive anything like a Javelin, and the aim is to keep the feel, keep the look, and just to modernise it a little.

That said, it isn't my car, they chose to do it and it is their money and who are we to tell them they are wrong. Many will think that dropping a modern engine, albeit a boxer engine, is the wrong thing to do, but otherwise would we ever get the car back on the road? Would it ever be seen out and about? I'd rather see that car on the road (assuming it is safe of course) than to have it lie in a field or scrapyard unloved to rot. It might just be the kind of thing that someone sees and says "I wonder what that car is, I'd love to have one of those" and then get involved in the club.

We should all accept that Jowett cars are great cars to drive, great cars to look at, but if a few modifications (wthin reason) is what is required to get a wider audience interested in the cars, perhaps that is no bad thing. There doesn't seem to be a huge shortage of Javelins out there, plenty coming up for sale and not at ridiculous prices, so perhaps they are a good way for new members to get into Jowetts, and perhaps get more involved in the club as a result. it has certainly not done many of the other classic cars out there any harm to have people make tasteful modifications to their cars.

Jack.

[Chris Spencer]

So Jack, when does project 'Lame Rod' commence ?

[Jack]

So Jack, when does project 'Lame Rod' commence ?

Once we've finished a few more of the cars

I will be spending a while gathering necessary parts for the project. And doing a lot of measuring and checking things.

And I don't think we'll be calling it that. I think Amy quite liked Javaru, and we all know what she says goes.

Jack.

[Chris Spencer]

Jack - Thats a real pity about the name - I was just getting all arty and practicing my glass etching skills - 'Lame Rod' would fit real nice on to the back window.

[Srenner]

Hello from the Home of Hot Rods!

Here's my 2 cents: KNOCK YOURSELF OUT!! You may not find anyone who will buy the car for what you have invested (time and money), but that is NOT and NEVER was the idea behind a Mild Custom or a Hot Rod. It is an individualistic statement meant to be an expression of your idea of a "good" car . If someone else values it, then that's fantastic. If others admired the craftsmanship and the details, then good on you. If you enjoy it, that's all that counts. Could your time and efforts be better spent in the pursuit of something else? Well, we are all here playing with Jowetts, so that's a moot point.

Power vs. chassis strength? The weak link(s) will out themselves. Drums vs. discs? Bow and arrow vs. rifle, although I would add I think my drum brakes are up to the task in racing, but I KNOW a set of discs would be an improvement. Not correct for the car. On the street, that's different, although the discs would be superior to the grip of my current bias ply tires! Lock them up easily.

As for as ruining an otherwise "restorable classic", I believe ANY running Jowett, in ANY configuration, is better public communication for the club and the marque than another derelict waiting for someone to take a liking to it.

We need to get the cars in front more people.

[David Morris]

Hi there,

I agree that some mild 'improvements' could help keep a Javelin safely on the road in today's traffic conditions. After all, Gerald Palmer did create one or two problems with his designs! I know I am stirring a hornets nest here, but I am thinking about the engine, where oil leaks are almost inevitable, head gaskets are prone to leaks, the water pump is eccentric to say the least and the gearbox has annoying habits of jamming in gear or jumping out of gear. The overall gear ratios are chosen to climb hills rather than cruise at 60, when the engine could easily pull a higher gear and therefore drop the revs. and the propshaft has some of the layrub couplings running outside their design ratings, in terms of recommended deflection angles.

Despite these 'unique points', and most of us would say because of them, we love our old girls, and I think most people would want any modification to be reversable, should a future owner want to return to the original build status, as it often said that we don't own the cars, but just have them on trust, ready for the next owner!

So, how's this for a ground rule? Let's say any changes would only involve, at most, drilling the original metal in order to fit the 'improvements'. No cutting would be allowed? In that way, a return could be achieved without too much of the original car beng affected?

Food for thought?

David

[Jack]

Hi there,

I agree that some mild 'improvements' could help keep a Javelin safely on the road in today's traffic conditions. After all, Gerald Palmer did create one or two problems with his designs! I know I am stirring a hornets nest here, but I am thinking about the engine, where oil leaks are almost inevitable, head gaskets are prone to leaks, the water pump is eccentric to say the least and the gearbox has annoying habits of jamming in gear or jumping out of gear. The overall gear ratios are chosen to climb hills rather than cruise at 60, when the engine could easily pull a higher gear and therefore drop the revs. and the propshaft has some of the layrub couplings running outside their design ratings, in terms of recommended deflection angles.

Despite these 'unique points', and most of us would say because of them, we love our old girls, and I think most people would want any modification to be reversable, should a future owner want to return to the original build status, as it often said that we don't own the cars, but just have them on trust, ready for the next owner!

So, how's this for a ground rule? Let's say any changes would only involve, at most, drilling the original metal in order to fit the 'improvements'. No cutting would be allowed? In that way, a return could be achieved without too much of the original car beng affected?

Food for thought?

David

This is basically my approach to it - if you can't undo it, that isn't modification, that is a different thing altogether. That may mean welding up minor hidden parts, but doesn't involve cutting 12" off the length of the car for example. I am all for people making changes to the cars, upgrading things, even changing the look and feel of the car if they want, but I am pretty keen to avoid doing things that in 20 years time someone is going to look at and ask why. I know we have had those moments with our various cars over the years, where something silly has been done in maintenance or restoration and the reasons why aren't clear - I want to avoid that with this project.

I think most of the issues you raise above would be largely eradicated by installing a more modern engine and gearbox, it doesn't have to be 300bhp to be more than capable on modern roads, what I am aiming for is a car that we can drive every day without issue, which in theory should mean a much wider audience than people who only see our cars when the sun is shining on a weekend. It also makes huge driving challenges achievable, turning a rally from being an exercise in ongoing maintenance and repairs into a relaxing trip where the cars are the tool to get where we are going, instead of the tools being required to get the cars where we are going.

I think the other thing to consider is how long we own the cars for, and how many other cars are out there. I think we'd all agree that getting one of the special bodied cars and cutting the special body to bits, changing the engine and gearbox, changing the chassis, and stripping out and throwing away the interior would be criminal. However when there are (as we saw at the rally) hundreds of Javelins on the road, and hundreds more sitting in garages and barns across several countries, how much harm is it for a small group of members to modify a few cars and increase the potential market for the cars? I'm not sure of my own thoughts on that one, I wouldn't want to change anything that I couldn't undo fairly easily, but at some point during the project there is going to be a "should we do this" moment with regard to originality - I don't know what that is yet, but it will be well considered for sure. How long we own the car for is to some extent a commercial decision - invest all the time and effort into the car to keep it for 3 years and lose money on the project is silly, our intention is to keep the car forever - literally they will never be sold. They may be transferred when we are old and grey (I am rapidly becoming both) they may be stored for a few years when we are short of time to use them, but I can't see us ever selling them.

Just a few thoughts.

Jack.

[Chris Spencer]

Jack - What you failed to say was that you have already turned myself and Keith grey - long before yourself !

[Keith Andrews]

and I think most people would want any modification to be reversable, should a future owner want to return to the original build status,

Fully agree....30 yrs ago the vintage and Hoy Rodder were un measurable distances apart..
The rodder would buy a good vintage, cut and chop etc
Then orginal steel for roddrrs and vintage guys became rare.
The rodder market then stepped in making fiberglass bodies, and now even pressing orginal steel panels and patch panels and of caoarse the vintage guys cought onto and also started to buy them.
Today..well in NZ the vinage guys, who know the score, work well with the vintage guys at swap meets etc... a mutual repsect for orginal steel.
The vinage guys who dont know the score see a T bucket, or 5 window ford coupe, turn their noses up with " that should be illegal" and dont realise most of these are fiberglass replicas or modern steel.
OR that 55 chev rodded was built from a body that any self respecting vinage restoror would not touch, and havnt touched , let lay in the paddock for the last 50 yrs to rot..and has rotted beyond any repair that their skills are just not up to it.
I have seen good restoable and restored vintage rodded over the last 50 yrs....In the last 20 yrs seen more rods that have been chopped/channels rebuilt to orginal vinage...both by rodders and vintage guys.

Vintage steel should never be cut, there is no need to do so anymore, and it is cheaper not to do so now.

[beachcomber]

Just tripped over this thread on my way to finding out as much as possible about Javelins and possible mods.

remember .......Hot Rodders were around a long time before restorers.