How good is the suspension?

[Jack]

Quick question, open to a lot of opinion I guess, but interested in Javelin owners opinions all the same.

On the Javelin, how good is the suspension by comparison to more modern suspension types - is the car going to cope with hard cornering, increased power from the engine, and potentially bumps and turns at high speed?

Is the car really suitable for the kind of racing and rallying we've seen in the past from Javelins? Would it compare to the handling of a modern car with mininal modification?

Interested to see opinions on this, and how to ensure the Javelin is stiff enough for our little project, without stiffening things up to a point that we end up with a car that feels like it is on wooden wheels

For those who might be getting a bit curious, I am working on plans for a project that just might be a very easy and effective modification to make the Javelin usable every day and even a bit of a speed demon - I know the original car is more than capable, but this should be a fun project that won't stray too far from the original concept, I just want to make sure the end product that comes out will live up to expectations (and will be safe more than anything!) - all will be revealed in good time, probably in time for The Rhubarb Run next year I will be able to start another epic rebuild thread, depending on the various other cars we need to get sorted this year

Jack.

[Forumadmin]

Rhubarb, rhubarb!

Geoff McAuley and Frank Wooley had Roger Clarke in a Mk1 Cortina following them down a mountain in the Dolomites. He commented at the end of the stage on the handling qualities of the Javelin.
Similarly John Blanckley and I overtook cars on the Gorge du Verdun in the Monte when there was ice and bolders on the road. mind you we did not realise there was a sheer drop of 1000ft past the non-existent armco.
Also Hugo Von Zielen showed me how a Javelin was driven in 1952 in the snow and ice and wet leaves on the 2002 Tulip rally. He was overtaking Jaguars and other more modern rally cars.

I am intrigued by this desire for speed from one who was overtaken by a pre-war.....

[Chris Spencer]

I think we are slowly getting there in the planning dept for a future Javelin project, (Jack along with rear axle width we could do with the weight of the suggested engine) - Now has anyone out there carried out a front brake disc conversion on a Javelin ?? Any info on discs / calipers / hubs used would be gratefully received

[Alastair Gregg]

The weight of a Javelin engine with ancillaries is around 250lb
Without ancillaries but with gearbox just shy of 300lbs (295lbs)
So if you now weigh a gearbox the last piece of that jigsaw fits into place.

Do remember Jowetts were working on the Juno project prior to closure and that was to have been a straight 6!!!!!! Of 2.5 Litres capacity. Modern straight sixes do not abound.

[Jack]

The weight of a Javelin engine with ancillaries is around 250lb
Without ancillaries but with gearbox just shy of 300lbs (295lbs)
So if you now weigh a gearbox the last piece of that jigsaw fits into place.

Do remember Jowetts were working on the Juno project prior to closure and that was to have been a straight 6!!!!!! Of 2.5 Litres capacity. Modern straight sixes do not abound.

Really 300lb without ancillaries but with gearbox? I moved that on my own (basically same engine and gearbox) for the Jupiter - that seems like more than the weight I was lifting, I can shift my own weight (easily 220lb) and lift it, but for 300lb I must have been really angry that day Keith's claims that he used to do it on his own without a hoist seem even less likely now. Then again, I may have been overtaken by a prewar, but I am definitely built for strength, not for speed

Given a kurb weight of 940kg, I think a realistic aim for the project is to keep the weight to approx 1,000kg - easily achievable, and with a few more horses under there we could have a very practical vehicle for everyday use on the motorway etc.

Recent feedback from some other cars with the engine I am planning to use is that 1/4 mile times of 14 seconds would be about right, and top speed will be easily over the magic 115mph.

I've just had an amusing e-mail from the tame wiring loom builder, who has now seen a Javelin front end - "That's probably the most obscure and impractical engine access I have ever seen" - good for the Jowett engine, not so good for other options

I think I am comfortable enough with the suspension given comments above, but disc brakes on the front are definitely going to be a sensible idea. All input appreciated on conversions that have been done or what might fit.

Jack.

[Jack]

I think we are slowly getting there in the planning dept for a future Javelin project, (Jack along with rear axle width we could do with the weight of the suggested engine) - Now has anyone out there carried out a front brake disc conversion on a Javelin ?? Any info on discs / calipers / hubs used would be gratefully received

Thankfully, I seem to have found one of the best power to weight ratio engines commonly available

Complete weight of the engine is around 250lb with all the extras, plus the gearbox weight. Being largely aluminium construction it has a lot in common with the Jowett engine, and seems to be very similar weight so little impact on handling etc, just a straight increase in power.

I'm actually a bit impressed with myself, even though it was largely by chance and research on the internet. Still working on whether it is narrow/short enough to fit under those front wings without major surgery though. It definitely goes through the width, but the height may be a problem.

I will research the axle width later today. Other advantage to using the donor car axle is that it has discs at the rear already, and good stopping power.

Jack.

[Chris Spencer]

Jack - Now that throws a whole new light on it - what we may be able to do now is leave the front brakes as drums and run with rear discs but we would have to fit a brake bias valve and more than likely a servo - this is a easy route compared to changing the front drums to discs unless there is a ready to go bolt on conversion which I doubt.

[Jack]

Jack - Now that throws a whole new light on it - what we may be able to do now is leave the front brakes as drums and run with rear discs but we would have to fit a brake bias valve and more than likely a servo - this is a easy route compared to changing the front drums to discs unless there is a ready to go bolt on conversion which I doubt.

It will also avoid the back end squirming too much under heavy braking - which is to be expected at the end of a 1/4 mile...

Is it advisable to run with drums at the front and discs at the back? Just because I've never seen a car that runs that way, all go with drums at the rear and discs at the front, or one or the other all round. I think after our challenges on the Jupiter brakes that a bit of work on the brakes wouldn't be a bad idea anyway given the speed and handling required.

It also means we can run "standard" wheels on the back instead of the Javelin narrow tyres, Keith and I had a look at this and established that we could easily run a wider tyre without modification to the wing. Personally I am in favour of a very slightly wider wing to give it a more drag racer look, but at the same time we don't want to get silly with it and make life harder than it has to be.

As it was discussed last night, the track width (outside of tyre) as standard is 57" and standard tyre is 16" rim 6.5" width. I think this may fit under the Javelin.

Going to need to come up with a codename for the project too. Apparently "The Legacy Project" is taken

Jack.

[Alastair Gregg]

Glad you noticed that the "Legacy project" might just be a name in use

Not a rice burner please!

[Robin Fairservice]

I believe that one would have to put the discs on the front because under heavy braking about two thirds of the weight is on the front. If you put the discs on the back there would have to be a brake proportioning valve which would negate any extra braking from the rear discs. If you can find a Mk 1 Jaguar 2.4 or 3.4 rear axle I believe that they are the same track as the Javelin. One could then get disc brakes, and explore the higher rear axle ratios available for the 3.4 model. I seem to remember that the Rover V8 engined Javelin had the complete front suspension off another car, and that came with disc brakes. Going that way could also provide a conventional rack and pinion steering which might imrove installation issues.

Regarding engine weight I have a spare engine and a shop crane, so after the weekend I will experiment with a bathroom scales. I brought a gearbox back from UK once as checked baggage and it weighed 35 pounds, without the tail shaft extension piece.

[Amy]

I brought a gearbox back from UK once as checked baggage and it weighed 35 pounds, without the tail shaft extension piece.

That's a good point - Scott and Jim did the same on this trip. I took them down to Bill Lock's - when I asked en route what it was they were collecting, I was a tad surprised when the answer came back "two transmissions" !

I suspect Scott Renner would have the answer to the gearbox weight - theirs were without the tail shaft as well IIRC. I'm not sure he reads the forum, but I can drop him an email.

Amy.

[Jack]

I believe that one would have to put the discs on the front because under heavy braking about two thirds of the weight is on the front. If you put the discs on the back there would have to be a brake proportioning valve which would negate any extra braking from the rear discs. If you can find a Mk 1 Jaguar 2.4 or 3.4 rear axle I believe that they are the same track as the Javelin. One could then get disc brakes, and explore the higher rear axle ratios available for the 3.4 model. I seem to remember that the Rover V8 engined Javelin had the complete front suspension off another car, and that came with disc brakes. Going that way could also provide a conventional rack and pinion steering which might imrove installation issues.

Regarding engine weight I have a spare engine and a shop crane, so after the weekend I will experiment with a bathroom scales. I brought a gearbox back from UK once as checked baggage and it weighed 35 pounds, without the tail shaft extension piece.

Hi Robin,

That was my thought as well - something like 75% of the braking power is on the front axle normally, so we are probably going to end up with discs all round, which seems like a good thing.

On the back axle, that can come from the donor car without issue - it is strong enough to handle 340bhp on other models, so should easily cope with the comparatively low power we'll be putting through it. I believe it is limited slip diff as well, so more advantages in terms of roadholding. The front axle might not be so easy due to space restrictions under the front end, but never say never. We may be able to mate the existing chassis and suspension to the front axle from the donor car, but this is starting to make it a complicated project, and we'd run into things like power steering and associated wiring, pumps etc.

Do we know who built the Rover V8 Javelin? Probably worth me getting in touch to discuss possible help on how to fit things together and whether we replace the front axle as well as the rear. Seems like a lot of work vs getting discs to fit the Javelin axle, but then we haven't found anyone that has fitted discs to a standard Jowett axle yet. There must be a conversion possible out there, but has anyone done it?

Jack.

[Chris Spencer]

Jack - Changing the front axle etc is not too bad a job and Iv'e done a few conversions before - the racing car had a cut and stagered transit front axle fitted to it ! - I need to look at the Jav front set up in more detail to get some idea of what we are up against - name of the project is easy 'Javelin Subbox'

[Srenner]

I'm here! 40lbs missing the brass clutch shaft cover, rear flange and nut.

First, what motor!?!?!?!?!?

The hard part is the legwork selecting bearings/seal from the donor hub OD to the spindle size of the Jowett. In several conversions I have done on American cars, the mount for the caliper was cast, although I have done one welded up from plate. They simply bolt to the existing 4 bolts that retain the backing plate.

Other factors: wheel offset, caliper-to-rim clearance, caliper sizing relative to existing m/c, selection of another m/c. Piece of cake! Can't believe there isn't a kit in every parts store.

Scott

[Alastair Gregg]

I have this suspicion Scott:-

A Subaru Legacy