Javelin sump.

[Drummond Black]

Ted, if you are getting fuel into the bowl then try cleaning all the jets or just try another bowl that has been cleaned. If no fuel getting thru then look further down the fuel line.

Drummond

[TedAllen]

Hi, Old buddy.
Just got the carb off and on the bench. There was fuel in the bowl so i'm going to build a new carb from the best of the dozen I've got.
That can wait 'til tomorrow now while I get my temper back !
Tried to do a compression test and can I get the thing screwed into No.4 !...Been trying for half an hour in all sorts of painful positions. i thyink the inner wing won't just let me get the correct angle ! I'm getting 130 psi on No.2 and they both tested ok before I put the engine in so no more struggling at this stage.

I'll see what happens tomorrow....I'll let you know.
Ted

[Forumadmin]

Did you test with a tube in your lug-hole to see if there were any sucking noises around the throttle or gasket onto head. That is the most likely cause of unbalanced running.

[TedAllen]

Yes, I sprayed some WD40 ouround the area........I used to do this a lot on breakdowns and found if it got sucked in it speeded the engine up slightly. Nothing in my case.
I've cleaned and rebuilt a carb from the best of my spares and fitted it today.......Thanks Mr Zenith, for putting the auto advance take off just above the fixing stud and Thanks, Mr Jowett for putting the HT leads support just where you need space for your spanner !
Didn't get a chance to fire it up today but got some new copper cored HT lead yesterday and made a new set of leads up this morning.
I'll finish later tomorrow and report back.

[TedAllen]

Well, the deed is done. I completed fitting up the ' new ' carb today and put the new HT leads on...I bought 4 metres, thinking that would be ample and I've only got a foot left ! This cable is much nicer than my old stuff, it's black instead of red and a lot more flexible. The other was quite stiff plastic but this feels more like softer rubber.
Anyway, She runs a lot better and feels more ' ready to roll '
As Keith suggested, I think there might have been air ingress somewhere 'cos if you put your hand over the air intake it nearly pulls the flesh off. It didn't do that before.
This time, I made a cork gasket and fitted it with ' instant gasket ', allowing it 24 hrs to set.

On this engine, I've fitted an external balence pipe system. The wedges under the carbs are drilled and short lengths of steel tube Araldited in. They are connected by a length of black rubber fuel pipe with a ' T ' piece to the pintle valve.
The pipes inside the tappet covers were cut and sealed a couple of inches behind the head face by welding.
It seems to work perfectly well.

Just got to take the chromework off the back wheels now and give them a coat of black Smoothrite. I did the front in between other jobs. She's booked in for a local, first off ,charity car show in 3 weeks....second oldest car there.
Youngest daughter is due to have second son end of this week........still refuses to give him ' Jowett ' as middle name !
This is the same girl who was in a pram at the Doune rally !

Thanks to all who advised.

[Forumadmin]

I do not understand why you fit an external balance pipe. What is wrong with the internal one? If it was larger diameter or you wanted a different tuning length for competition work perhaps I could justify the work!

[TedAllen]

My reason for doing this was simply because I've had two major failures of the seal. One requiring a long distance recovery home and the other in a newly built engine leaving me to upset the neighbours with all the smoke while trying to figure out what had happened.

Moving back to the car now, I still can't get it running right.
I can still take 2 and 4 leads off at the same time without any change. I get a good spark at a plug held against the block from both.

So far...4 new copper core leads and king lead.
4 new plugs....L10 replacements.
Carb rebuilt with a different body and bowl. All jets blown out with oxygen under pressure.
Compressions both about 130psi.
New Distributor cap fitted today.

The bowl is full of petrol when taken off. When running, the car smokes...indicating unburnt fuel is being burnt in the exhaust.
It also drips on the ground through the n/s manifold to pipe joint....

One anomaly I've found which may or may not make a difference..........The club handbook and the workshop manual both give the distributor as having a clockwise direction of rotation ( presumably, they mean the shaft )
Mine doesn't ! Put the handle in and turn and it's definitely anti-clockwise. The arrow on the rotor arm also points anti-clockwise. Is this an error in the book ?
Have I fitted the skew gear on the crankshaft the wrong way round, perhaps?
Can it be fitted wrongly and would it make any difference as long as the firing order was OK ?
I don't mind refitting it if it sorts the damn thing out !
I've got good, for me, oil pressure on this engine, about 60 psi when running and about 15 on tickover.

This is getting frustrating...I've spent many years dealing with breakdowns on cars with points/carbs, etc so I'm not in the dark as to their workings.
Come on, Mike, Drummond and all the other experts......sort this and it might just help Paul with his as well !

Ted

[Forumadmin]

This is very very similar to my current problem I have with my Javelin. I reckon it is my petrol pump so will change tonight.
I tried the manual pump and there was no resistance whereas normally you get resitsnace until the carbs are full. Taking a pipe off the carb inlet only produced a dribble when manually pumped. This was enough to fill the chambers and to keep it ticking over; but there was no power and it virtually died going uphill.

[TedAllen]

I'm using an electronic pump, Keith.
It's brand new and I did make sure it's spec matched the needs of the carbs.
Off the top of my head, I think it delivers 8 gallons/hour at 1.5 to 2 lbs psi.

I'm going to look for a spare skew gear and dizzy and see if there is a difference in direction, on the bench.
Ted

[TedAllen]

Right, set up an ' engine front ' with a spare crankcase, shaft, oil pump and skew gear.
When you turn the crank clockwise, as it should turn, the dizzy shaft goes anti-clockwise......not as the manual says.
Reversing the skew gear is not on because the boss on the gear holds the skew away from the dizzy gear. Even if you could fit it wrong way round, the skew is just the same and would drive the same.

Shame really, I could have sorted that one out.
Back to the drawing board.
I'll take the rocker cover off next and check the valves. I can't really see a problem there, if they were too loose to open I'd be getting no fuel through and if they were too tight to close, there'd be no compression.

The whole thing was compounded the other day, I had it ticking over ( on 1 and 3 ) and was round the front of the car when it jumped forward and stalled. Getting in, I could'nt find a neutral although it started with clutch down.
Happened a couple of times and seemed to rectify itself each time after a few seconds. I took it out for a mile or so yesterday and there was nothing untoward with the gears.....although it ran like a twin ....but not as smoothly !

Ted

[TedAllen]

Just had the rocker cover off and checked the clearances....all the pushrods turn, as I had set them.
While the wheel was off I checked the compression on 4, having borrowed a different tester. The reading on both 2 & 4 was about 125 psi.
I also had the engine ticking over and sprayed some Zippo lighter fuel around the base of the carb with no affect on the running, so seems to be sealed to the head ok.

Thinking now of valve timing, could this be a cause ? I normally take out a camshaft with the chainwheel still bolted on or mark the correct hole with Tippex and bolt it back on straight away. I can't remember what I did this time.
I do have a camshaft with the wheel still on. Might be worth trying it if all else fails. I don't want to split this engine but, if I recall, you can feed it in from the front with the tappets pushed back

Ted

[Forumadmin]

I changed the petrol pump and the distributor tonight with no affect on the problem. Next port of call are the ignition leads, then the valve clearances. Since this was something that happened as it was steaming along the bypass, it cannot be valve timing unless the timing chain has slipped a cog.
I then start to be pessimistic and think of balance pipe seals, pistons ....and engine out.
Who will find their problem first? I have to get the car to Goodwood in a month for the Vintage years where the Jav is on display.

[TedAllen]

Looks like we're blood brothers on this one although, at least, your's has been running so you can rule out some things.
This engine has only just been started after a rebuild about 3 yrs ago.
Drummond rang me at teatime and we had a long chat. We both now suspect that, in my case, it could well be valve timing.
He's given me all the instructions on how to check it so I'll have a look tomorrow

Pity, really, he was heading North and only read of my plight when he was 100 miles north of here. I could have got him and Ruby to call in by bribing them with a meal and a bed for the night !

I'm booked at a local rally on the 11th...it's not far and on a Sunday so I'm sure I could do it on 2 pots. I was out testing it yesterday before the footy and it was indicating about 28 mph..........all 30 round here so not too obstructive.
It's not a major problem if I don't get there but I don't like letting organisers down. If it's not ok by weekend I'm cancelling.

Ted

[David Morris]

Hi Ted,

Oh dear! You seem to have checked everything and more! It's so frustrating when you cannot think of anything else to check! However, when all else fails, could it possibly be the simplest thing that is causing the problem? I am thinking here of the strange firing order on the Javelin. It is, as I am sure you know, 1-4-2-3. Could it be that the plug leads on cylinders 2 & 4 have somehow become reversed?

I know you are probably thinking how silly I am, suggesting such a simple thing, but we have all got plug leads wrong ( or at least I know I have, with really frustrating results! ).

I suggest you start with the rotor arm pointing to plug No. 1 and, noting the anti-clockwise direction of rotation of the arm, follow the firing order round, as you rotate the engine on the handle. It will take two full revolutions on the handle to get back to where you started, as the dizzy goes round at half engine speed.

I've just had to change the cylinder head on our Javelin, on the offside bank ( pots 2 & 4 ) due to a burnt-out exhaust valve on No. 2, so have just come back fresh from setting the valve clearances etc.

By the way, I have recently fitted one of those cheap new distributors ( around £37 ) that are being advertised as suitable for early metal bumper 1960's MGB's. Great value and a direct plug-in replacement for our old 25D's! I know that the purists will sudder and probably tell me off for using a 45D distributor with, probably, a different advance curve and characteristics, but at this price getting an all-new distributor with all the slack taken away, must be worth trying! Anyway, I can recommend it! They are still on offer on eBay, item number 390108619447 if you or anyone else is interested, and the old girl is going like a bomb!

I know my old 25D distributor was completely worn out after 60 years and any possibility that it was anywhere close to how Joseph Lucas designed it must have been very remote! The 45D one is exactly the same length and shaft diameter as the original, and you get a new advance/retatd mechanism, modern cap and points as part of the deal!

Just hope my thoughts on your problem help and I hope you soon get your Javelin working as she should!

All the best,

David

[Forumadmin]

having swapped some spare HT leads over I decided to get a new set.

Went to Halfords and my local motor factor to get some ignition leads and they only had them in horrible yellow or orange. Anyone know a source of black ones of the correct length with standard plug fittings on distributor side (rather than screws like original)?

Anyway managed eventually to get some NkG plugs BPE6HS (rather than the fitted BP6HS).

But ignition was not the problem. Noticed some petrol by carb and investigated. On taking out the main jet holder (Dellorto) found it was actually missing the jet. So instead of a .3mm main jet I had a 3mm one. Problem solved. Retrieved the jet that was rolling around inside the float chamber screwed it back in. Fired it up. Loads of power and no black smoke.

Obvious really; but I was originally on the right lines that it was a petrol problem, too much rather than too little. I have had similar with the Zenith with a holed float, take them out and shake them, if they have any petrol inside you need a new one! Also if the needle valve is not closing or there are not enough washers under the valve you will get similar problems.

Remember this car idled well with this fault.