Vehicle concours

[PAUL BEAUMONT]

I would like to kick off a discussion on why we have a vehicle concours. What is the purpose of this exercise. I have my own views, but I would like to hear yours

[rob needs]

When i look at a concours vehicle i think to myself,hey thats in nice nick.Then i think,oh my god someones been polishing the end of that bolt,that is up under the wing.

These cars are normally better than when they came out of the factory.I was at one show here in Bristol and one chap brought his A40 on a trailer.This car was shinning,i mean everything was shinning.He stuck mirrors under the engine so you wouldn't miss the bits underneath.

The thought of somebody spending all that time on it gives me the creeps.

[george garside]

arriving at a set of equitable concours judging rules is and always has been frought with dificulties & can sometimes result in a farcical situation. In the sixties & seventies it was possible to prevent the polishing of everything underneath etc etc by making it a condition of entry that the vehicle haad to be driven from home to the event whatever the distance. (OK some could cheat by trailering to a mile or two away but they took the chance of being tatally dishonoured!)

Another grossly unfair situation is the so called cheque book restoration or indeed entering a vehicle that has been purchased in 'concours' condition. Neither of these has involved any skill or effort on the part of the exhibiter but it is very difficult, but not impossible, for those putting huge amounts of time & effort in to compete against the efforts of professional restorers and large amounts of cash. Perhaps there should be a separate class for 'all my own work' retorations.

Originality has also always been a thorny issue. I was involved with the organisation of the first national rally in Bradford , a simple one day event. We agonised at length over whether we should penalise cars fitted with flashing indicators and somewhat illogically (with the benefit of hindsight) decided that flashers would be permitted penalty free provided semaphores were fitted and working! As we were dealing with Jowetts that were for the main part in everyday use we also decided to incorporate an engine idle test i.e a nice smooth idle - we forgot that by the time we got around to doing this all engines would be stone cold.

In my book it is impossible to RESTORE a car to anything above factory gate standard as by definition it is impossible to RESTORE to something that it has never been.i.e to a condition better than has previously existed at any time in its life. So dull induction pipes with dribbles of hermatite should be top for originality.

With todays traffic and the slowth of prewar cars in particular it is acceptable that some may be trailored to events but perhaps those so conveyed should suffer penalty points or perhaps on a more positive note bonus points should be given for non trailered cars with excommunication the penalty for cheating.

Another thought is that the exultation of too good to be true vehicles can be offputting to those of lesser means & /or ability .

I personally prefer two simple awards in place of a concours structure and all its pitfalls. These could either be for all Jowetts present at an event or could be duplicated by classl.e side valve, commercial, jav, jup etc. They are 1. Members choice - just one vote per member per vehicle with no subdivisions for parts of vehicle and another similar award for 'publics choice' with members of the public present being ivited to vote in a similar way.
With this light hearted 'competition' anything could win from the overbulled to the tatty but characterful unrestored , patinated but mostly original old car loved by everybody.

so endeth my ramblings but as you probably gathered I have never been overkeen on concours!

george

[Keith Andrews]

I have a different background to most of you...Hot Rodding..American steel.
Thu consour is not strickly apllicable, there are show cars...these are just pure works vof art...thu everything hast to work, from light to blower on top of the big block engine.
In Rodding it is accepted that 'each to their own' be it a tidy daly vechile, to the full on show car... or drag car, or a a combination of the above.
Even to the extent some clubs just have members of one perswashion, others are more laid back and just accept a genuine interest.
The latter is more comparable to the small British classic /vintage club.
But having different persashions in one club creates headache..."how do we cater for all within the club" and often an eletist mentality.

Jowett ..well in NZ is a small laid back club thats about members, not the cars...Over the decades the guys have devaloped a lot of awards, from economy to best car, to most attended, bad luck etc
Who takes out the Best car...the concours would each yr, f there are several up there, these guys compet hard out, the rest of us enter for the fun...the day out with m8s...the day out
And the same goes for each of the other events, awards.

There is the big annual interclub Concours De Etigance in Auckland...that has everything from Ford mustangs, daimlers, holden, minis, Austin
The best of the Best NZ clubs can offer, crem de crem.
When they serious guys compete, they dont just compete for their car, but for their club to, this is where the club/owners/cars truely come into to their own...
So when it comes to a club Concours, ...strict rules are not enforced, rather, who has prepared the car the best, cleanest, orginality not strict, so if indicators are added, radial tyres and stainless wheel trims or someone polishes the inlet of a bradford, and looks good, so be it.

I have to deal with eitists outside the club, not for the bradford, but our Camaro...a full on rare matching numbers car, with all orginal documentation that has been used as a daily car...even family car for 30 yrs, custom colour, Rebuilt engine designed for LPG, custom mags tyres, inlet maniflogs and a lot of other stuff...the fact that right down to the orginal knackered brake hoses, alternator, staryer motor, tie rod ends ball joints are stored away means nothing to some.....they try to tell me what I should do with MY car, MY money...that I should not use it daily or to not have a tow bar, and should not drive it over narrow, dusty, muddy remote gravel roads, as we have done in the last week.
One day I may , or someone after I die, will turn it back into a static museum peice...till then I will continue to treat these 'want-a-be' people with the contempt and rudness they ask for.

For a club that has members of a mixture of car stds eitism shouldnt exist.
That eitism should be part of the club, when the club goes up against other similar clubs at national events.

[TedAllen]

I think the origins of Concours were laid down before the Hitler war, particularly in the chic and expensive French resorts. There, wealthy owners would attend to display the latest acquisition, perhaps a Delage, Isotta or Delahaye. Everything had to be presented to the most exquisite standards, Car, dress, couple of wolfhounds or a borzoi perhaps. Even the picnic set and furniture would have to be right. I don't know if it was marked for points or competetive in any way or just an opportunity to show off.
Must have been a great sight to see. Can't really see anything of mine, including dress, making the grade.
Ted

[k. rogers]

I remember years ago reading about 3 types of concours: the Concours d'Elegance (the type Ted is referring to), the Concours d'Etat (which I can't remember what it means, perhaps somebody else will know!) and the Concours d'Originality. You very often see the first type used at shows but rarely does it give the original meaning any justice, other than a way of judging a vehicle's overall condition - I think the only types of show that come anything close to the original meaning of the phrase are those such as the Pebble Beach concours which is only open by invitation to those fortunate enough to own those exotic cars the rest of us can only dream about. I personally feel that many of the cars I see at shows have been over-restored as if that is what the judges are looking for - to me this is verging on customising! I think that if someone is aspiring to restore a car to 'concours' condition it should be as near as possible and no better than when it originally left the factory except for safety items such as indicators, etc, provided they have been fitted sympathetically - the Concours d'Originality! This is of course only my own view and I am sure many will disagree on the grounds of safety and usability, but I am really talking about things like embellishment of items that perhaps were simply painted or had a dull finish originally. What do other members think?

[Tim Neville]

The sheer amount of work,time,effort and expense that some people go to, to produce a totally immaculate 'work of art', is to be applauded. I have experience of this in the world of Traction engines, where the detail that is gone to is remarkable, (hand lacquered split pins!!!). The cost of such works are of course prohibitive for most 'ordinary folks' and in that regard I think Concours to be elitist and perhaps disheartening for the struggling restorer.
My description of a Concours vehicle would be - Restored to a high standard at least equal to the standard of a new vehicle when it left the factory, wherever possible keeping to original specifications, parts and materials but incorporating engineering, technical and material advances where applicable for improved reliability and safety, but that do not in any way detract from the original design, styling or intended use, body lines and styles and trim should always be original.

[Keith Andrews]

I have a friend who some yrs back found a garage find in the States.
A 66 mustang, 3 miles on the clock, and still with the factory plastic over the seats and stuff...and stored maintained over the yrs, all documentation, orginal QC crayon ticks and intials on the body work, suspension etc...... the works
Cost him a small fortune.
He entered after a thougher clean up...spotless in the Concours in NZ.
Didnt come close to making the grade,eg panels where within factory spec, but factory spec has +/- variation

[Forumadmin]

Having been one of the concours judges last year, I can only say how difficult it is.
The first problem is comparing say 30 items of say 20 cars. You first need to agree and stick by a standard. Then you need to remember the condition of each of the 30 items for each of the 20 cars to do the relative comparison. Now if the cars themselves are different makes or models that is extremely difficult. It is relatively easy with one make and one model.
My view, is that the cars should display the engineering and craftsmanship of the makers, not of a modern workshop. Any safety changes should be removable.

Of course, cars should be used and one way to encourage that would be to proove mileage since a restoration (possibly using the MOT certificate). Points could be awarded for the miles driven. Of course, that can be fiddled; but hey it is only an aly pot or lump of wood

I have also seen a lot of restored cars that are little more than a good paint job. If I had my way I would dismantle all the mechanical parts and see how good they looked. This does happen at race and rally scrutineering; but I am not suggesting it for JAW.

In the end prettying up, restoring, or maintaining a car is a personal matter. Very few Jowett owners do it to make money; but I guess advertising as a concours winner does add some value.

[Keith Andrews]

I have also seen a lot of restored cars that are little more than a good paint job. If I had my way I would dismantle all the mechanical parts

THAT is a very good point, its ok tho have a conours 'looking' car but does it stop? brakes work and ahusted correct, steering box, ties rods, king pins all in ACTUAL working order...or are they shimmed or packed up hard with grease

[TedAllen]

Just for Javelin fans, . A lookalike car in concours condition, a 1937 V12 Lincoln Zephyr.

[Keith Andrews]

Having been one of the concours judges last year, I can only say how difficult it is.

There is a real easy way
Anounce you are wiiling to take bribes...
The highest bribe gets the best marks, but the lower bribes are not refundable...and if there are several judges winning is not garanteed.

We attempt to have this system in NZ, but either they dont have cash on them and we dont have Ef pos.