NEW FULL-HYDRAULIC WHEEL CYLINDERS

[Nick Webster]

As far as I am aware (and I have just checked some examples) on the original Girling cylinders, both ports were tapered. This allowed use of the standard Girling pipe end which at the time was the single form bulb. The air bleed screw was flat nosed and pushed against a small ball bearing which located in the taper and provided the seal. In practical terms this meant that the bleed and pipe ports were interchangeable depending on application. This was not the best idea. Either the ball would get rusty and stick shut or if you took the screw right out, the ball came out almost un-noticed and was lost forever in a dark corner. People would either try replacing the screw without it or change to a taper screw - in both cases causing damage to the sealing seat.

As far as I am aware, reproduction cylinders are being made suitable for use with double formed flares. However, reconditioned (re-sleeved) original Girlings may have the taper seating.

Attached is a picture showing how I have my brake pipes arranged - the bottom of the back plate being on the left in the photo. I have noticed that some people run the bridge pipe around the bottom of the plate. This means you don't have to include the more complicated bends, but running around the top affords more protection for the pipe. By the way, before someone says about L and R hand cylinders I think that to all intents and purposes they are interchangeable.

Nick

Back-plate.jpg

[Chris Spencer]

Not quite sure what the song & dance is about here - I'm probably one of the most prolific Jowett restorers in Europe with many cars passing through my workshop on a annual basis - many for recommissions / services / restorations etc - having undertaken 3 brake rebuilds this year so far - all parts supplied by Jowett Car Spares - All without issue - Of course if you expect remade parts / parts from differing suppliers to fit first time / without issue and not to have to make minor changes / small amounts of fettling then maybe you ought to voice your concerns to the supplier first rather than proliferate the rights & wrongs on public forums or in printed correspondence - Yes I understand the requirements to assist others / members etc - I do it on a daily basis either by phone / e mail with many members. Having again just completed a brake overall on a Jupiter only yesterday with JCS parts and no issues - If you have a problem contact your supplier - help / advice is always available or are you too proud or think that you know better to do so ?

[Mike Allfrey]

Dear Chris,

I have just tried to submit a lengthy reply to your post. It seems the thing sort of timed out on me.

Bit frustrating, but that seems to be the modern way.

I will try to re-type it as a Word document and paste it in later.

Kind regards,

Mike Allfrey.

[Mike Allfrey]

FULL-HYDRAULIC WHEEL CYLINDERS
Dear Chris,
I sincerely apologise for causing the distress of some Club members – it was not at all intended, just an attempt at informing others who may encounter the same problems that I discovered.
First, I greatly admire what you, Keith Clements, Drummond Black, Bill Lock, Paul Beaumont and Neil Moore (NZ) are doing for Jowett Car Club members and other Jowett enthusiasts around the world. Such dedication is appreciated, and the service provided by Jowett Car Spares Limited (JCSL) is excellent.
Second, the fact remains that such parts as those used to repair braking systems should be fit for purpose or be accompanied by an information bulletin advising that it may be necessary to under-take modifications to ensure that supplied parts will fit properly.
I did try to find out who the manufacturer of the County wheel cylinders actually is, using the Internet, without any success. There was mention of a company and street address in Leicester and a Google Maps search took me to what looked like an Indian restaurant – so that was a dead end. I could not find any mention of the maker of County wheel cylinders. I did reach an engineering firm in Sussex, asking if they had supplied County wheel cylinders to JCSL and received an instant terse response that they were not at all interested in Jowetts – only Jaguar, Austin-Healey, M.G. and Triumph. They also informed me that they were not at all interested in communicating with retail customers. So, that was the end of that line of inquiry. I then gave up, and just got on with the task in hand.
Getting back to the Jupiter, I do not know what happened in the late 1950’s, but the brake system had been converted to the full-hydraulic system with, on one side, wheel cylinders with the early pressed steel dust covers. On the other side there were rubber dust covers and associated pistons. Even though I had those cylinders sleeved with stainless steel liners, the rears still leaked. That was put down to locally supplied cup seals.
Because I had sold the Jupiter, it had to pass a roadworthy (your MOT) test and the tester considered the brake pedal travel to be excessive. This, plus the knowledge that JCSL had stocks of new manufacture wheel cylinders, made me decide to replace all wheel cylinders to ensure commonality. Naturally, I expected to be able to install the new cylinders employing a normal procedure.
The cylinders for the front brakes were the first task, it was soon found that with the hydraulic pipe bosses aligned with the openings in the back plates, the ¼-in. cylinder mounting studs did not align with the holes in the plate. The eight holes required opening out to accommodate the mount studs. That is all very well, but here in Victoria the road authorities see such as being a modification that would require an expensive and time consuming Engineer’s Certificate to allow the car to be registered (licenced) as a modified vehicle. Such modifications are, very likely, beyond the scope of an owner/mechanic. The amount drilled out of the plates was minimal and a plain washer ably covered the modification. Otherwise, the County wheel cylinders are good.
With the rear wheel cylinders the situation was different. There were two problems – a) The brake drums were impossible to fit. – b) The handbrake would not have operated at all. These conditions were well beyond the scope of an owner/mechanic. It has to be said that a fair amount of frustration had set in. It was fortunate that I had a set of new stainless steel pistons on the shelf and I could use the original seal spreaders and spring to convert the wheel cylinders to suit the Jowett system. My main point is that a customer should have such information at hand when fitting the County AR-55L and AR-55R rear wheel cylinders. The pistons supplied could be machined at the larger diameter end, however, a dimension for machining should be supplied with the wheel cylinders.
Since the commencement of my apprenticeship in 1956, I have never experienced having brake parts that did not fit. I have been involved with M.G., Standard and Triumph cars, farm tractors, combine harvesters, self-propelled farm machines and various trailer braking systems.
I still think that, with respect to such an important road safety item that brakes are, then the Jowett Car Club should supply advice that County wheel cylinders, and their mating components, may require modification to ensure that they are fit for purpose in a Jowett motor car. However, it is possible that I may have purchased the only set, from the entire batch, that was not fit for purpose. That requires truthful answers.
Frankly, I would not mind paying twice as much for a set of wheel cylinders (or master cylinder seal kits, for that matter) that could have been installed in the normal manner, but then, my attitude to the cost of spare parts is vastly different from that of most Jowett owners.
Now, since the wheel cylinders have been installed, the brake pedal travel has been successfully reduced. However, the overhauled master cylinder has commenced leaking fluid at the outer seal in the front body. That has been repaired using a ‘new’ seal kit, however, there is now a leak at the joint between the two body halves of the master cylinder. I do not know the age of the master cylinder seal kits used for the repairs. It is worthwhile considering that brake seal kits and hoses should have a specified shelf life. That on its own makes matters very difficult for our spare parts people. I bought two master cylinder seal kits just prior to the 2000 Le Mans trip. About five years later, I examined the second kit that had been stored in a zip-lock plastic bag, and found that the ‘O’ ring that fits between the two body halves had perished. The recuperating seal and the outer seal appeared to be suitable for use, but they were scrapped because they were, very likely, the same age as the ‘O’ ring. It is my understanding that the ‘O’ ring should be of square section – is that correct?
Being rather close to 84 years old, I think it can be easily understood that the feeling of my being mechanically incompetent is now a fact. That condition is also accompanied by a large measure of frustration that was generated during what should have been a simple repair job.
I really do wish that the Jowett fraternity worldwide could communicate together with regard to spare parts matters, but then, it seems I am barking up the wrong tree. Here in Victoria there are many specialist service businesses that have closed down. The same is probably happening elsewhere in the world as well.
I promise to be ultra-careful in the future about what I write, describing concerns, on the Jowett Talk forum.
Kind regards,
Mike Allfrey – Melbourne, Victoria, Australia.

[Keith Clements]

Thanks all for this conversation. The 'song and dance' is not just one being performed by Mike on Jowett brake issues. Chris has also had issues with leaking wheel cylinders. Indeed only two weeks ago on the race car we spent most of a day investigating and fixing a leaking cylinder. VERY SERIOUS causing much consternation in the team. The problem involved remaking a brake connection pipe but I was working on electrics, so perhaps Scott can explain.

[Nick Webster]

County is the name of the company. They sell after market parts - or did ... I think that they may possibly have ceased trading, or been taken over, since Googling County Parts does not seem to bring them up any more. They supplied many items for Land Rovers (not just brakes) which is where I suspect that some confusion could arise since there was a Land Rover version known as the County. In fact the connection is as far as I can tell, a coincidence. I would add that I have had many Land Rovers in my time and not a lot of luck with County parts.

Nick

[Chris Spencer]

To clarify - I haven't had any issues with leaking brake cylinders supplied by JCS - I did have a problem with leaking incorrectly fitted brake cylinders on my Javelin when I first purchased the car some 14 years ago - said cylinders had been bodged by a club member who should have known a whole lot better - these were replaced with JCS supplied cylinders and the system converted to silicone brake fluid - I haven't had any issues since in the 30,000 + miles it has covered

[David Morris]

Hi All,

I shall leave the suitability of brake parts to others who are much better qualified than me. I only comments I can add are that, on Javelins and Jupiters, we are dealing with single-fault safety systems. One fault and you may have no brakes, creating a serious hazard to you, and, more importantly, others.

Personally, I have always fitted new components. I never felt competent at rebuilds, and you never knew the age of rebuild kits, that might be NOS. As having been associated in my working life with excellent technical chemists, I am aware that rubber components, especially, have in-built stabilisers in their mix, that determines their service life. How much of this has expired? Rubber, and even some plastics, will eventually just crumble away to a powder.

On master cylinders, which I have always assumed are not available as new, my advice is to use professionally rebuilt ones that have been recently pressure tested. I would add that an addition to the Jowett braking system on Javelins and Jupiters, that I believe is a good safey addition, is to fit an extension to the brake fluid reservior that shows the level of the brake fluid, as the extension is made of clear plastic. These are available from several advertisers and could be a fitting to many different vehicle makes. When fitted, you can just glance at this fluid level every time you open the bonnet and either get a warm feeling of reassurance or a warning that there may be a leak somewhere! Are they available from JCS, if not perhaps they should?

Having probably said enough, I experienced two brake situations that might be worth mentioning. One was a total brake failure on the road, caused by the perishing and hence failure of the little flexible pipe that feeds low pressure brake fluid to the master cylinder. When did you last check yours? The car had recently passed an MoT and didn't belong to me.

The other point was not being able to replace the rear brake drums on a Javelin with full hydraulic brakes, after a complete brake rebuild. The back plates had been repainted and all components either replaced with new, or throughly cleaned. Everything looked to be correct, What on earth was wrong? It turned out to be the wedges in the mechanical brake adjuster had been reassembled in the wrong order. They looked OK, but needed reversing to allow the new shoes to fit properly, to allow the drums to fit. Measure and mark before you disassemble.

Brakes can seriously effect others, so be very, very careful. You are driving a tonne of potentially hazardious metal!

All the best,

David

[Mike Allfrey]

Thanks Chris, Nick, Keith and David,

I get the impression that the rear wheel cylinders were not to Jowett specification. It is my understanding that Girling used the same wheel cylinder housing for numerous vehicle makes. It is possible that the same wheel cylinder housing could have been used for larger diameter brake drums, but used different length pistons, seal spreader spring and, maybe, a different handbrake draw link.

When the brakes are correctly adjusted, the pistons do not have to move far before the linings contact the drum surface. Thus the same housing can be used for different diameter brake drums.

The only information, in relief on the County casting, was 'County' and the identifications 'AR-55L' and 'AR-55R' - there was no other identification. No box or plastic bag label stating "Suitable For . . . ." and this means that there is an element of doubt as to the origin of the cylinders

I have seen, on Austin-Healey Websites, exactly the same County wheel cylinder, but the packaging box label was not readable at the photograph. The A-H wheel cylinder with the same identification on the casting was priced at more than twice the price of those from JCSL.

Just to advise, my E-mail system has completely destroyed itself, meaning that I am off the air!

Regards to all,

Mike A.

[Srenner]

The issue KC refers to on the race car was a malformed "ball" type end. We had removed the brake line to replace a leaky County slave cylinder and after reassembly there was a leak at the pipe. We had quite the debate whether the end should be a ball or a double flare. We used a ball end tool that made a questionable ball flare, but it did the job.

I have always used double flare and do not have the tool to make the ball end.

Neil Moore was going to study what is in stock in NZ. I would not be surprised that County changed the machine work. Some years ago they changed from a 7/16" UNF hex to a 10mm on the bleed screw. Many of their products were switched from being called out in Imperial to metric, resulting in small but annoying fit problems.

IMO, County products are a last resort.

[Keith Clements]

From Neil Moore
With reference to the problems with the brakes of Harry's race car, the problem was a malformed end of the small pipe on the brake hub connecting the two cylinders. What had us all initially fooled was the pipe had a BALL end on the pipe instead of the normal double flare I've usually encountered in the 60 + years I've been playing with these cars. We did a quick check of old and new front cylinders at Peters and they all had a vee at the base of both holes.
We remade the pipe end with a good Ball end and the sealing worked ok.
I made a point of checking this vee hole when I returned to NZ and today checked about 20 old and newer front cylinder bodies and they all have vee holes. Most also showed a small step at the edge of the vee which suggests the double flare pipe had been used and simply jammed into the hole to seal which it obviously did. The ball type flare would be a better seal.
Now the rears are quite different!! The pipe hole in centre has a reverse upward shape to accomodate the double flare , and a vee hole for the bleeder.
So!! It appears the best method would bee a Ball type flare for the small front pipe and the double flare for the rears.
Now the County cylinder units seem to have a piston of the rubber cover type, that has the shoe slot not as deep as the Jowett originals. This May be for a slightly larger brake drum but whatever it is not right for our Jowett drums. I would suggest checking this part and using the original Jowett ones if they are serviceable . In NZ we have remade the Pistons to original specs in stainless so this is not a problem, and we resleeve our bodies. Hopefully JCSpares will sort this detail on the COUNTY brake units with whoever supplies or makes them or remake the original Pistons .

Neil Moore. Parts team NZ JCC.
One never stops learning , even at 83 yrs young!

[Srenner]

I checked the used front and rear cylinders in my loft and see the same as Neil above. I took a look at the old hard lines that connect the two front slaves and note that the double flare from Jowett had a pretty generous sealing surface compared to the flaring tool I use. Still, I have had near perfect results putting double flare on the fronts.

If the cylinder leaks around the threads of the tube nut, there are copper discs one can purchase that slip into the body of the slave and act as a seal once compressed.

[Mike Allfrey]

Thanks Scott,

The part number of the copper adaptor is BX244 from BGT Brake Service here in Keysborough, Melbourne.Photo attached.

I have seen some pipe union nuts with the hexagon hard against the wheel cylinder body boss and wondered what had gone on in there.

A search on the internet revealed that County Motor Vehicle Components Ltd. has been 'dissolved' at some stage.

On a good feeling note, the Jupiter passed its roadworthy test yesterday and the registration has been transferred to the new owner. Sadly, the car is going to loose its original Bradford registration number - JKW294, to be replaced by the awful local Victorian Club Permit plates.

Regards,

Mike A.

[Nick Webster]

With regard to Mike's comment about the union nut hexagon hard up against the slave cylinder: I have come across this problem and as I have previously stated, the nuts were designed with a different recess, depending on whether they are to be used with a bulb end or double flare. Difficulties with correct matching has resulted in the greater use of one particular type, mostly because the double flare stands a good chance of sealing even in the wrong hole. Incorrect matching of components (particularly if you are re-using a nut which may have "spread" after tightening) could result in having to tighten down the nut furthur in than expected.

That's my favourite and more technical theory, but it could just be that in this day and age of replica parts. some are coming up shorter than others.

Incidentally another problem I have encountered (much to my surprise given the recognised name) was with an Aeroquip reinforced flexible hose. The nut had been gripped so tight during the crimping operation that a tiny burr, hardly visible, had arisen on the mating face to the cylinder. Although it gripped into the annealed copper washer, the next day it was found to have leaked. I filed off the burr and succesfully re-assembled. I checked others and did not find a problem, but it is worth minutely inspecting everything before assembly.

Nick

[Mike Allfrey]

Thanks Nick,

I have seen, and been involved with, union nuts that have been so severely over-tightened that the portion that seats the pipe into the wheel cylinder swells to the extent that, as the union is unscrewed it takes a portion of the thread out of the cylinder housing. This situation was not on a Jowett, but on an Austin A40 Somerset - same type of Girling brake wheel cylinders, if I remember correctly.

Mike A.