Moises noises.

[Moises]

Keith, I have read all your clutch topics and everything is correct on my engine. The problem is in the fork. As you say, the thrust bearing should advance 4.2mm. to free up the disc, which in my case with an LHD fork translates to 12.6mm. at the end of the fork. With the original ball, it is impossible to get this movement. I have to advance the ball with a 5mm shim. (To see photos). I think the cause must be in the ball or in the socket of the fork. I attach dimensions of the ball so you can tell me if they are correct. Thank you so much.

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[Keith Clements]

Scott and I have carefully looked at this together and think the problem is a combination of the thickness of the friction plate and a difference in the slot position of the thrust bearing. Can you compare the thickesses of the old and new friction plates and the slot position of the the old and new thrust bearings. By slot position I mean the centre of where the fingers run in the valley of the thrust bearing and the thrust face.
Scott and I will measure my ones tomorrow and post here later.

[Mike Allfrey]

Not sure what this is all about, but here goes.
When I first got hold of the Jupiter, it had that much end float that, when the crankshaft pulley was pulled and pushed, movement could be seen at the distributor rotor arm. There was no loud noise and the oil pressure at idle was not enough to lift the gauge needle, it did come up to 40 psi at 40 mph, sort of 40/40 situation. That engine was a real flyer!
We fixed the end float with new crankshaft bearings and added white metal on the rear main bearing flanges, all set up with the big end journals centred with the cylinder liner bores. The work was done by the Bristol Motor Company (Morris agents). They claimed they had never seen anything like that before. The engine still performed well, it was an odd-half cankcase and some years later i fitted a reground Laystall crankshaft that George Mitchell supplied, I don't know what George did with the rather wide rear main journal Laystall.
The late Phil Irving (Vincent HRD and Brabham Repco) told me that if a racing engine could be run with large clearances, it would be a real goer - the only problem being to keep enough oil flowing to keep the noise down to reasonable levels. Said in jest.
Regards,
Mike A.

[Moises]

Thanks to Keith and Scott for the help and Mike for his comments. Going back to the subject of the clutch, I think that in my engine, the ball has always had a rear shim. In fact, on the road the clutch works perfectly and the gears are easily changed. The problem is in the noise and the anormal wear of the fork. I have now suspended jobs on my Jowett engine. I am going to the hospital for a small surgical operation. As soon as I recover I will continue to investigate the Javelin clutch and will report the results

[Keith Clements]

Ib Rasmussen is looking at his LHD cars and will report back.

[Moises]

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With my health issues over, I'm back to working with the Javelin clutch. As can be seen in the attached photos, the distance between the release lever and the rear face of the clutch housing is 71 mm. and the tolerance between the fork and the clutch housing is 7 mm. I will appreciate your opinions. Thank you.

[Mike Allfrey]

Hello Moises,

I am assuming that the clutch throw-out bearing support (50007) and first motion gearbox shaft (50020) are held in place by the dark coloured block and plate, thus holding the clutch operating lever securely on its pivot ball? I am not familiar with the left-hand drive clutch operating mechanism, but do know that the left-hand drive clutch operating lever has a different part number. I think that relates to the dimension from the pivot ball cup to the centre of the clevis pin hole. Someone may be able to confirm the dimensions?

Also assumed is that in the photographs, the free movement of the operating lever has been taken up to show us the small amount of travel remaining for the operation of the clutch.

Questions:

1. Are the three clutch clutch operating fingers in the clutch cover and pressure plate assembly (50844) set at the correct height? We used to use a special set up plate in place of the friction plate assembly to adjust finger height. Should the fingers be set too close to the friction plate, then the result will be excessive fork travel before contact is made with the three fingers. If the fingers have been adjusted even closer to the centre of the friction plate, then they can make contact with the friction plate and cause noise and continued drive of the friction plate which will keep the whole assembly rotating. I have seen this situation on farm tractors, but all Borg & Beck clutches operate in the same way.

2. Are the clutch operating lever pins (50847) worn on one face?

3. Does the friction plate (50844A) have the correct thickness linings? Should they be too thick, then as the clutch cover and plate assembly is tightened against the flywheel, the fingers will be pulled closer to the friction plate as the setscrews (bolts) are tightened.

4. Can the lever ball pivot (50837) be pushed forward of the rear face of the clutch housing (50836), to move the clutch operating lever to a normal position that provides more actuating movement of the operating lever as the clutch is engaged and disengaged? I have, a number of times found plain washers inserted behind the lever ball pivot (50837), in previous attempts to adjust the operating lever (really operating finger height).

A clutch specialist should have the specifications for clutch lining thickness and for operating finger height setting.

I hope you can understand what has been written here, my Spanish is just 'una bigente' a description of a water melon I bought in Blanes in 1966!

Regards,

Mike Allfrey - Melbourne, Australia.

[Mike Allfrey]

Back again! One question forgotten:

5. Does the crankshaft have excessive end-float?

Mike Allfrey - Melbourne, Australia.

[Moises]

Hi Mike, Thank you very much for your help.
All your considerations are correct. The LHD fork measures approximately 48mm. from the pivot ball cup to the line of pins and 150mm. from the pivot ball cup to the center of the clevis pin hole. As you have observed, after contacting the bearing with the fingers of the plate, the available travel of the fork until it touches the clutch housing is 7 mm. which convert to 9mm. in the center of thrust. Although, from 5 mm. the friction plate is already released, I think this travel is too short.
I am going to answer your questions:
1.- The cover and pressure plat assembly is new, provided by Bill Lock. I think the setting is correct. I have verified that the total movement, pressing with a press on the fingers, is 16.44 mm. From 5mm. the friction disc begins to release.
2.- I have mounted new pins supplied by JCS.
3.- I have two friction plates, both 8 mm. thick, one with 6 springs and the other with 4, (See photos June 04, 2023). Keith Clements advised me to use the 4-spring one, which is the one I have ridden.
4.- Effectively, the travel of the fork increases by pushing the lever ball pivot forward. I'm glad you told me you've seen engines with flat washers placed behind the lever ball pin, because I think this is the solution to my problem. I just need to know the thickness of shims needed.
In conclusion, I think the problem is excessive wear on the bottom of the pivot ball cup
5.- The crankshaft has the correct end-float.
Thank you very much Mike,
All the best

[Moises]

About Blanes. I was eating Paella at "Restaurante Casa Patacano" in Blanes, with Drummond and Ruby Black in the summer of 1966.

[Keith Clements]

Quote from the topic I previously referenced in this thread.

I tried it with different thicknesses of friction plate, from the 4 mm that the removed worn plate had , through 7mm which seems to be standard, to the 8 mm which seems to be the modern 'possible' replacement and which I had so much trouble on Ken's (now Chris's car).

Note these two plates also came from Bill. JCS I think supply the correct plate.

[Keith Clements]

Scott and I suggest you take the friction disk into a machinist and ask him to take 0.5mm of friction material off each side