Moises noises.

[Keith Clements]

A deafening noise has appeared when accelerating while driving. At first, I thought it came from the gearbox, but I have disassembled it and everything is correct: the bearings and bushings are news and seem to work correctly.
My concern is with the crankshaft. Do you think this noise could be due to a fault in the crankshaft bearings?
I hope you can see and hear the attached video and I will be grateful if you give me your opinion.
https://youtube.com/shorts/-amDxpC-3BY?feature=share
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Hi Moises,
It is useful to know some history. Did the noise suddenly start or get worse ?
When was the engine running with no noise and what has been done on the car since then?
Oil pressure ok ?

You may be better at locating the source of the noise using a tube in the ear (stethoscope) or a metal bar to the ear.

It sounds more to be coming from the clutch. Presumably you suspected the gearbox because the noise was only there with the clutch engaged. Does the noise change with foot on the clutch?
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Thank you for your answer
Regarding the history of the car, as you will remember it was assembled in 2013 with crankshaft, connecting rods, bearings, camshaft, pistons, heads, etc. provided by Bill Lock. In 2017, I changed a piston due to its breakage when a washer was inserted into the cylinder. The repair was satisfactory.
The engine has barely traveled 1,000 km. I have been driving with a faulty exhaust system that did not let me hear the noise of the engine. When JCS has supplied me with a new exhaust pipe and I have installed it, I have been able to notice the noise of the engine. Doesn't sound idle. Only when accelerating and driving. I have recorded the video with the rear wheels raised and the gearbox in top gear. The noise appears when I release the clutch and start turning the transmission.
The differential is noisy and has a lot of play. The transmission seems correct, the midship bearing is new, the universal joints are good and the propellor shafts are balanced.
Oil pressure:
Cold engine: 55 psi.de
Hot engine:
900rpm : 15 psi
4,000 rpm. : 45psi
Low idle pressure has had it forever
I have tried with a stethoscope and I am unable to figure out where the noise is coming from. Everything sounds the same
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You should be able to locate if it is the gearbox or elsewhere in transmission.
If not then take out the layrub and listen again.
You said there was no noise at idle but was that when in any and all gears or in neutral?
You said the noise only occurs when accelerating but does it occur when say at constant 1500 rpm and with foot on brake while you are driving the rear wheels off the ground, so the engine and transmission are under load?
Bill did supply a clutch friction plate whose springs hit the thrust bearing with a similar noise.
You said you looked in the gearbox. Was there any metal, either steel or bronze , in the oil.

Is the noise there when in reverse?
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The second video is recorded with the front layrub removed and top gear.
https://youtu.be/mRwE8gZz7Qw

Although it makes noise, the sound is different.
The gearbox was clean. The oil did not have any metal.
I can't test the reverse gear because I have removed the engine from the car

[David Morris]

Hi Moises,

Good to hear from you! Ouch! The first video does sound noisy and worrying. However, the second video, with the front coupling removed, sounds pretty good to me. Javelins are not quiet cars and I would suggest that the second video gives you some confidence that the engine, clutch and gearbox are all ok.

You said that the differntial is noisy and has a lot of play? I suggest that maybe the source of the noise? I know John Airey has recently rebuilt his Javelin's differential and maybe able to offer some advice on what to expect.

Another thought is that the first video had the rear wheels spinning. It might be worth checking the rear brake drums and axle bearings? They would be a lot easier to cure than the differential!

Hope this helps,

David

[Keith Clements]

You said there was no noise at idle but was that when in any and all gears or in neutral?
You said the noise only occurs when accelerating but does it occur when say at constant 1500 rpm and with foot on brake while you are driving the rear wheels off the ground, so the engine and transmission are under load?
Bill did supply a clutch friction plate whose springs hit the thrust bearing with a similar noise.

1668804081733.JPG

I think that the clutch friction plate is working fine.
Keith, do you think the problem might be with the crankshaft bearings?

I talked about this at the Southern Section meeting.
One suggestion was the clutch pressure plate is hitting the clutch housing. So slowly rotate and see if there is any wear anywhere on the outside of the pressure plate. Apparently this fault is reasonably common. It may be due to too much crankshaft end float or perhaps a high nut holding the clutch housing to the gearbox.
The noise is not getting worse and only occurs in drive not idle so It could be too much end float in the crankshaft but I doubt that noise is the caused by faulty bearings. Do you know if you have seperate thrust washers or the standard rear white metal bearing? If it is bearings there would be metal in the oil. if the engine was rebuilt 500 km ago tand noises were masked by a noisy exhaust then it could be inside the engine. Possibly conrod bolt hitting liner. Are they standard bolts or black allen bolts, the latter need to be ground to miss the liners, but the noise would be a lot worse if they had not, but perhaps not enough.
Have a real good look at the clutch and flywheel to see if there are any wear marks. Something must be hitting something, somewhere!

Regards
Keith

I had another look at your picture. That is a six spring friction plate that is not standard. I have had problems with them. I suggest replacing with a 4 spring unit.
Regards
Keith

[Moises]

Could excessive crankshaft end float be the cause of the noise?

[Moises]

IMG_7863.JPG

[Moises]

IMG_7860.JPG

[Srenner]

Yes, the excessive end play can damage your motor. Sorry to say, but disassemble the motor and correct this.

[David Morris]

Hi Moises,

As you probably know, crankshaft end float on the Javelin and Jupiter engines is controlled by the thickness of the 'cheeks' formed on the sides of the rear main bearing shells. When fitting the rear main bearing shells, these 'cheeks' have to be carefully reduced, if necessary, to give the 0.002" -0.003" end float on the shaft. If the crankshaft is reground, a reputable engineering shop will need the new shells, to adjust the regrinding of the shaft to fit the new shells.

As Strenner has mentioned, there is no other way to reduce excessive end float, other than to fit new bearing shells and adjust to give the correct end float.

Unfortunately, excessive end float will cause problems with the other bearings and should be corrected.

Hope this helps,

David

[David Morris]

Hi Moises,

This discussion on crankshaft endfloat, takes me into remembering what I have heard over the years as what Jowett's did to overcome this problem. I hope you don't mind me rambling on, but Jowett's were also an engineering 'Jobbing Shop' and obviously liked to take on engineering projects for other customers. I guess they knew that the design of the way to control crankshaft endfloat in the Javelin and Jupiter engine in the production engines was pretty rubbish. Other companies had by then developed much better ideas, and they had close relationships with Hepolite, who made engine bearings.

I don't know when, but later on they apparently took on some development work for Ferguson ( who happened at that time to make tractors, but then so do Lamborghini! ). Ferguson were, at that time, experimenting with cars with four-wheel drive. It looks like Ferguson asked Jowett's to help them by designing a modified Javelin engine. Jowett's must have rubbed their hands at the thought of someone else funding them to get the Javelin engine up to a better standard! There must have been several development versions, and I have a Javelin engine block with 'FER' in the serial number and this has separate half'moon shims to control the crankshaft end float. The rear main bearing on this engine has no part in the control of crankshaft endfloat. The rest of the block is fairly standard, or at least up to Series 3.

There is a much later development version of the Javelin engine that Jowett's produced for Ferguson's in the Coventry Motor Museum, with overhead camshafts and that awful oil filter and rear timing cover design completely re-engineered.

Sorry to ramble away from the subject, but I am afraid that, on your engine, a strip-down to correct the endfloat will be required. If the rest of the crankshaft is fit for service, try and obtain a new set of main bearing shells with enough 'meat' on the rear main shoulders to allow you to carefully rub the shoulders down on a flat surface plate and crocus paper, until they just slide into the rear main slot on the crankshaft.

Otherwise, I am sure JCS has reconditioned crankshafts with all the bearings ready to install. Just do check that the rear main shells slide onto the crankshaft and give the correct end float, before installing them.

I do hope this helps and wish you all the best for a Happy Christmas,

David

[Moises]

Thank you David
I have finally decided to disassemble the engine in search of the happy noise.
I have a crankcase supplied by G.M.Mitchell in 1969 that has separate thrust washers. This crankcase only admits two washers in one of the two halves. I have tried to reduce the end float by inserting a thin sheet between the crankcase and a thrust washer. It only admits a thickness of 0.10 mm. With greater thicknesses the crankshaft is blocked.

The big surprise has given me the camshaft. The peg has worn completely, although it was adjusted correctly by loosening the thrust peg of the cover 1/8 of a turn and I have verified that it has not come loose. On the other hand, the supports appear scratched, black and the front face of the front support is very worn.
This camshaft was new supplied by Bill Lock and has barely done 1,000 kms. The timing chain is very stretched, which is inappropriate with such low mileage.
Could it be due to overheating due to lubrication failure?
As always I will appreciate your comments.

[David Morris]

Hi Moises,

Thanks for your email. I am very interested to hear that you have one of the crankcases with the separate thrust washers. I hope you can obtain a set of main shells? Perhaps JCS can help?

It certainly looks as though there has been some oil stavation with the unexpected wear on the camshaft, thrust peg and the timing chain. One cause might be that the lubricating jet on the oil pump that points directly up to the distributor drive gear and the timing chain components might be blocked? I have had this happen to me, and usually the bronze skew gear wheel wears very rapidly as well and might need replacing?

It's difficult to check but running a test pin, or very small drill bit through the exit jet might show that the jet is open or blocked?

Hope this helps,

All the best,

David

[Nick Webster]

I too have one of the George Mitchell engines with separate thrust washers. Unfortunately if you need to replace them the difficulty comes in identifying where they originally came from because they do not have any numbers embossed on them. Moises bearings look nice and smooth (I know it is just a photo). I am afraid that I was disappointed with the Main bearings available from JCS and sent them back. These days they are a modified version of something originally intended for another type of engine. I still have to find something suitable.

Nick

[Keith Clements]

Hi Keith, Are you in London? How is the snowfall affecting you?
Finally, I have decided to disassemble the engine and I have drawn the following conclusions:
The crankshaft main bearings seem to work correctly. There are scratches on the crankshaft, but turning is smooth.
The crankcase, supplied by G.M.Mitchell in 1969, is prepared to house only 2 thrust washers, in one of its halves. As for the end float, although the comparator with the mounted flywheel showed values of 0.30 mm, when introducing a supplement of 0.10 mm. behind a thrust washer the crankshaft stops turning.
The big surprise I found in the camshaft. It was a new unit, supplied by Bill Lock that has barely done 600 miles. The thrust plunger appears completely worn out. The thrust peg was adjusted correctly by loosening 1/8 of a turn and I have verified that it has not loosened. The chain timing is stretched, which is inappropriate with so few kilometers and simple valve springs. The camshaft bearing face on the front of the crankcase appears to be heavily worn. Why has this happened?
Could this be the cause of the noise that has led me to disassemble the engine?
Will I be able to reuse the camshaft or do I have to buy a new one?

All the best

Just back from Paris with snow everywhere.
My initial impression is that the bearing surfaces appear scratched, worn and show signs of break up. The cause could be particles in the oil, lack of oil or poor assembly. It is difficult to tell reliably from the pictures.

I assume there is no metal in the sump oil. Examine carefully.

I would first test the oil system by perhaps using a rig similar to that in the SA Rebuild. Check that the oil hole that sprays the timing chain is not blocked, that the oil being delivered is not aereated due to a faulty oil pump gasket and that a good volume and correct pressure is being delivered (worn gears or faulty pressure relief). A good oil pump will deliver pressure at low speed, say 150 rpm drill speed.
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Note Philip's comment about testing with SAE 10 oil to simulate hot oil.

Next try to feed some oil into the galeries to see if any of them are blocked or if oil is coming out where it should not. It could be the oil filter by pass is open. I have seen the filter housing gasket also break such that oil is not going where it should yet is not exiting via top of crankcase so you know something is wrong.

I have not seen such a worn cam so can only suggest perhaps the bearing surface was not hardened. Of course, it may not have been lubricated. The lock nut might have slipped. Such wear would indeed make a loud noise and the large end float might even have caused issues with cam followers.

[Moises]

Hi Keith, I'm trying to copy your rig to check the oil pump. I will report the results.
I have disassembled the oil pump and it seems to be fine except for some slight wear on the cover and the drive spindle.
Regards

[Forumadmin]

The wear is normal, but that scratching looks as though there was some grit in the oil. Could the block have been sand blasted and not cleaned out properly? Check the oil filter and sump and have a look at the bearings to see if any ingrained grit.

Was the oil pump gasket intact? It is a very thin plastic(celophane perhaps) one.