Briggs Motor Bodies

[Barns200]

Hello
I have a brass body number plate on my Javelin by Briggs of Dagenham - there I was thinking my car was pure Yorkshire!
The body number is 48D 3195. Does anyone know what this fefinately means. I'm guessing 48 is the year and D is for Dagenham. If this is correct, does this mean that 3195 should be the chassis number of the car too or was Briggs numbering different to Jowett numbering. Thanks for any help. Roger

[Chris Spencer]

Roger - The number stamped to the plate is the body number - you should have a sperate 'Jowett Cars Ltd' brass plate that states the chassis number - your car was primarily manufactured in Yorkshire - just not all in the same location - Briggs Motor Bodies had a factory in Doncaster which is where the Javelin bodyshells were assembled which were then delivered to Jowett Cars at Bradford, painted & largely trimmed direct from Briggs - Jowett then fitted the drive train, suspension and completed the car - Ford Motor Company purchased Briggs Motor Bodies in 1953 - the Briggs Doncaster factory was eventually owned International Harvester for agricultural machinery manufacture - Chris

[p.p.]

my 1950 javelin has the Frame number: 2077 / Body Number: 9622

[Barns200]

Thanks for your help Chris. So does 48D on the Briggs plate translate as made in Dagenham 1948?
My Jowett chassis plate (although I gather there is no chassis as the body is monocoque) is D9 PB 6292D - I understand this as a 1949 PB Deluxe. I'm just trying to get to the bottom of the fact that the chassis plate and body plate have different numbers. Any advice would be appreciated.

[Chris Spencer]

Roger - The body number and the chassis numbers are two entirely different things - the body number identifies the bodyshell has a Briggs built unit - Dagenham has nothing to do with it with the exception that it was the head office of Briggs Motor Bodies - All Javelin bodyshells were built by Briggs but at their Doncaster factory - the chassis number is the Jowett Cars issued number which identifies the car - Part of which 'D9' indicates that your Javelin was built in 1949 - 'PB' indicates that your Javelin is a PB model - '6292D' indicates the number order in which the car was built - some 24,000 Javelins were built mine being a 1952 and carries a PD 22,000 + chassis number (indicating that it is a PD model and was close to the end of the production run) - Chris

[Barns200]

Many thanks both, understood

[Nick Webster]

I think all Javelins carry the Briggs plate "48D". I have seen aother makes of car with Briggs bodies with exactly the same plate, but a different number. My suspicion is that 48 probably represented a particular contract i.e. Jowett. The "D" is not very helpful at all and could apply to both Doncaster or Dagenham. When I lived in the Essex area I met several folk who told me that they recalled seeing Javelin bodies coming out of Dagenham on low loaders. I have personally always accepted that Javelin bodies were made in Doncaster and took the claims with a pinch of salt. It hardly seems likely that presses would be set up at Dagenham only to be moved later. However maybe there was some Dagenham involvement at some point in history if not always for the whole of the body production run ... paint? Trim? Development?

Nick

[Barns200]

That's very useful, thanks Nick. What I was trying to get to really was 'does my frame belong with the body, or has something been replaced'?

[Chris Spencer]

Roger - In a word 'no' your Javelin is exactly has it should be - all Javelins have a body number (Briggs issued) a chassis number (Jowett issued) a engine number (Jowett issued) & a gearbox number (Jowett issued) (although some gearboxes were Jowett and some were Meadows) - There is no direct link or matching numbers between the body number & the chassis number - to confirm the car is of a unitary bodyshell construction with the chassis inclusive of the bodyshell - they are not separate units - its just that Briggs accredited a body number to each bodyshell produced in order to account & trace what they produced in a factory that was separate from that of the Jowett works - Jowett then issued / assigned a chassis number to the car once it was completed - it is the chassis number that from which the car is identified

Nick - I have little doubt that Briggs at Dagenham had a role to play in prototypes / manufacturing process but to the best of my knowledge all Javelin bodies were built at the Doncaster factory

[Nick Webster]

Although Chris has I think now made it quite clear that the Briggs body number is of no great significance (and I agree it is not much use, unless someone can actually turn up some Briggs production records) but it is perhaps worth mentioning that the number stamped on the Briggs plate can be found elsewhere on the car. This should not be confused with the Jowett number which, apart from the obvious identification plate, is also stamped into the cross member supporting the bonnet latch. It is a pity that this Jowett number tends to be called the chassis number because indeed - there is no chassis. More properly it is the VIN number , except that it does not conform to the required modern standard of code. Returning to the Briggs number, one of the more visible places to find this is stamped into the top edge of the front wings, normally covered by the closed bonnet. The number will match the Briggs plate and serves as a clue as to whether the front wings have had to be replaced at some time. Unless you are a die hard originality buff, I don't think you should get too hung up if the numbers don't match.

Also we should not be surprised that Jowett bodies were built by Briggs. It certainly does not make it any less Jowett (or Yorkshire). I have a Triumph TR2 and the body was built by Mulliner and carries a code as such. Many other manufacturers out-sourced their body building but in the late 50s / early 60s, concern over security of supply led to a flurry of take overs and various components that were previously made to contract were taken in house before someone else nabbed them, Ford with Briggs, Triumph with Mulliner and several others.

Nick

[Barns200]

Great, thanks for all your assistance, that's it solved.
Wings, and bonnet all match the Briggs number.

[NoelStokoe]

Hello Everybody.
Yes, all Javelins I have seen have the code number 48D, 48 being the job number given to it by Briggs.

The Bradford was allocated job number 49
49A was the code for a Van
49B Drive away chassis front-end
49C Chassis frame and body parts
49D The Cab
49E The Float - the Flatbed of a lorry
49F The Six-Light Utility
49G The Utility Deluxe
49H The Four-Light Utility

I am guessing that the Javelin also had other letter codes, but I am not sure what they were.
Noel

[Nick Webster]

Well, I am just about to prove myself wrong. In my previous post I ventured that all Javelins carried Briggs identification 48D. Prompted by Noel's post about Bradford variations I have just been to the garage and perhaps for the very first time had a really close look at my 1952 Standard model to find it is 48E. Quite what triggers a different letter and how many variations there are will be my quest for further study.

Nick

[Chris Spencer]

There are many variations of the Javelin but essentially the main bodyshell remained the same - the front wings differ due the size of the headlamp apertures between the early cars and the later ones - but there are many cosmetic changes that I have come across over the years and its not just down to the fact of early & late model cars nor the standard vs delux cars - I appreciate that some cars have received parts that are not original to the car - the common one being standard cars upgraded with delux parts or to a delux specification - I doubt that any Javelins were converted from delux to standard specification - the factory converted a number of cars that were originally intended for the export market from standard to delux specification and these carry a 14,000 range chassis number - there are a number of cosmetic design detail changes that I have come across that are factory original that were not factory specification for the model type and towards the end of manufacture there is some clear evidence that what ever parts were in the supply chain got bolted to the car regardless of model specification - whilst some parts have obviously been added to model examples at later dates ex factory I am always mindful of the fact that some examples left the factory with additional / upgraded specification and this should always be taken into account when making comparisons

[Keith Clements]

Remembering the talk at Gaydon by an ex colleague at Morris of Gerald Palmer, he remarked that Gerald did not consider production when doing his designs. Hence many adjustments to the design were done by the production engineers. This too would have been done on the prototype body shell by Briggs and subsequently as road testing and use by customers showed where improvements could be made.
Gerald said to me that the Javelin suffered from lack of development investment which larger companies could afford. Indeed we know that more hours were spent in production fixing faults after the Javelins came off the line and before they left the factory than were spent actually producing one. We can only speculate how many other faults were fixed subsequently by dealers or by recall to the factory.
The modifications to the shell (as produced by Briggs) may be included in the Technical bulletins or the Engineering changes page 10-12. Whether some of the mods, such as the extra support to the rear shock absorber, were fitted by Briggs or by Jowett is debatable. But it will be interesting to see if Briggs tracked such changes through their numbering system.
My guess is that two major changes instigated by Jowett may have called for a new body number, notably the different dash/larger headlights/full hydraulic braking and the rubber suspension. But were there other differences that necessitated a change of number?