Young Members And Alistair Gregg Planning A Flat Twin Build

[AlanBartlett]

At Scotland 08, hopefully Young Members, being me and Rachel and Alistair Gregg, have been planning on doing a demo of how a flat twin is put together, in order to help encourage people to the club now I have a spare flat twin engine in pieces which I would happily use as the demo engine however I am missing a few pieces, would anyone like to donate to this cause?

[Alastair Gregg]

I'm not sure if i'm "flat" ered or not, Its surely a while since I was considered young. However I think we ought to support Rachel and Alan in this endevour. Alan has expressed concern that he doesn't want the same degree of difficulty that he experienced with the last engine he has worked on. a sentiment this forum I'm sure would share. I suggested that there is a likelyhood that there will be at least 200 experts on hand to give advice, if not roll their sleeves up and get stuck in.

Having a Jupiter my stocks of flat twin component parts can be summed up in a nice round number, however if anyone does have some parts and I gather pistons are an issue, I would be delighted to pay their postage costs if they felt they could support this enthusiasm. I say this as Alan has intentions of checking stuff out before Crieff so that he isn't looking for serious crowbars to undo unwilling bolts over the weekend.

[Tony Fearn]

Hello Alan and the "team".

What's to be the outcome of this excersise. Is it just a fun thing involving as many youngsters as possible with the end result of seeing all the bits put together correctly without having an actual working engine at the end?

If so it might be of use contacting Jowett Spares as they have quite a number of Pre-War bits that aren't "as new" and may be willing to donate various ones to help with the project.

There are quite a few members from the Keighley/Bradford area coming to Crieff so transport shouldn't be a problem if the required parts aren't too heavy.

Perhaps a comprehensive list of what's required, on this site, might be of use, and a similar request in the "Jowetteer" will address the membership at large.

Tony.

[AlanBartlett]

Hello Tony,

I have all the bulky bits, all thats really really missing is distributor and all its bits, and dynamo and a few nuts and bolts oh and camshaft cog at the front...

I think it would be a great achievement to get it up and running at the rally, huge cheers all round I suspect.

[george garside]

Alan
I strongly suspect that most engine and such like build ups at shows/events are very carefully rehearsed beforehand so that everybody on the build team has a 'job' and knows exactly what to put where \& when. Also to test out that everyting fits smoothly together and if it is intended to have it running it is aslo tested running before the event. Things like very clear marks for distributor & valve timing help as does a carb set up properly for the particular engine . If using parts from many sources crankshaft /bearing and piston/pot sizes would need to be set up before the event.. It would also help to fit new cyl head studs and have all other studs & nuts running freely etc. It also helps to have a large board (? piece of hardboard) with the outline of major parts drawn on it and nails or whatever to hold nuts, washers in their correct groupings eg LH cyl head RH head, timing cover etc etc. The parts can then be carefully laid out on the board prior to the build up in the exact order in which they will be required.

Somebody but I vcant remember who had a 7hp engine running on a stand at I think the national rally at salts mill bradford in 19??. it probably consisted of a simple angle iron frame plus gravity feed petrol tank off a lawnmower & a slave battery plus some sort of rudimentary exhause system. I cant remember it haveing a raadiator but may be wrong. It was I think a 32/33 engine with fixed starting handle. The rear could be mounted onto the frame via bolts to the bottom of the bellhousing flance which would save the job of fitting a clutch! or a longer frame could be made to use the normal gearbox mounting.

Putting one together fairly quickly and then starting it up with the greatest of ease would be a great achievemt - hope you manage to get it organised - it sounds great fun!


george

[Tony Fearn]

Hi George,

I'm glad you have entered the fray. I'm hoping that others will do so very shortly. If you haven't decided to come up to Crieff at the moment, then I suggest you think seriously about doing so. It's many years since we and many other old friends got together.

Regarding Alan's Pre-war Jowett engine re-build, - if the end result is to be a running engine, then I'm not sure that members would be willing to "lend" expensively-restored parts.

This forum is rather limited in the number of members who own/drive pre-war vehicles, so as I said in a post above Alan, try J.C.S. Ltd., and if there is no response, perhaps a wider audience through the 'Jowetteer' should be involved, so that the onus is spread over the whole Club. Perhaps you should also invite other young Jowetteers to join the exhibition re-build. Don't forget to add 'Swarfega' to the list.

George is spot-on when he suggests that it needs to be all worked out before you get to Scotland, - storyboard and all. Preparation is all!! It will be useful to post the list of what you are taking to Scotland for the re-build in the early New Year so that members can add to it (and perhaps provide) if they think you've missed something. Alastair's offer of postage tells you how much support you will get from us all.

Nevertheless, if there is nothing promised from the membership at large, then next April, let me know what is still needed, and if I have it we can discuss what to do.

Alan, make sure that Drummond is aware of what you are intending to do so that they will have time to sort out what's needed at their end.

Write to Paul Beaumont and/or Alan Brierley to help to get the young Jowetteers interested. Your idea could be the start of an upsurge in interested "youngsters". eg. - quote - "do you want to get your hands black and oily in Crieff. Would you like to help put an engine together"?

You never know, the engine might go into a restoration project chassis at the 2010 meeting in Yorkshire.

With regard to George's recollection of a running pre-war engine at the N.J.W. at Salt's Mill in Bradford, quite a few years ago, this was prepared by our late, mutual friend George Nicholson, and it was mounted in a restored 1933 chassis. There wasn't a radiator attached, George N. just filled the aluminium manifold up to the neck with water and turned the engine off before it boiled. It was wonderous to behold though and ticked over like a Singer sewing machine.

Enough for now, it's rather late. I'm looking forward to posts from like-minded Pre-war enthusiasts.

Tony.

[Alastair Gregg]

With regards to the advice being meted out. All good I think. I alluded to the thought we had regarding building it up first when I mentioned getting the parts by post before Crieff so that all could be ready and also so that there would be no difficulty in dis assembling (bolts and crowbars).

Alan intends to build some sort of stand to allow them to work on it. We do have concerns on health and safety and trust someone somewhere can give us pointers, (Adult supervision, if your child is involved you check they aren't doing anything harmful, that sort of thing). We have already spoken to Drummond who has come back and affirmed they wish to support the project and asked what resource they can provide. Paul Beaumont has also been spoken to too. He hasn't been on the forum for a couple of days but I spoke to him last night on the phone and he likes the idea.

We will contact Alan Brierly re advert in the Jowetteer and also JCS. The engine that Alan will be taking along is the original from his own car and so he may wish (I am surmising here) to use it later and release the current engine in the car for any future projects or use it as a spare.

I will try to get Alan to post a more structured list of his needs. Thank you Gentlemen for your encouraging responses

[george garside]

with regard to health & saafety (just thoughts, I am not an expert)
1. all parts big & small to be steam cleaned ,polished or painted before the event so assembled engine looks 'new' - this would also avoid any 'contamination' of young persons with used engine oil etcetcetc.

2. a good secure stand needed to allow for assembly AND running. if anybody has just the front third of a chassis which could be mounted on castors or if not sturdy angle iron job like the stationery engine brigade use at events.

3/ Allan & other older younger members to perform like surgeons with younger younger members passing tools/parts etc from their place on a board - just like an opperating theatre - well sort of!

4. If the nitty gritty has to be indulged in, although I find dit somewhat sad to have to, parents could be asked to sign some sort of indemnity against the club, the organisors & other participants etc etc.

Its a funny old world with aoll this health anad safety stuff - when I was around 11 or 12 I was dismantling & rebuilding old motorbike engines without any supervision just to find out what was inside and also driving tractors. As soon as I had passed my test at 17 I was driving a 3 ton guy wolf with to Scotland, cornwall etc with 30 scouts in the back plus a large trailer loaded with 2 boats. Non servo brakes which meant handbrake on and both feet on the pedal coming down Shap. Todays youngsters don't seem to be allowed to have fun like that without everybody worrying about health & safety.

george (being grumpy)

[Drummond Black]

THis idea has the full backing of the Rally Committee. I have asked Tom Blackwood ( He is the Scottish member with the Jowett Tractor )to oversee the Section Stands at the Rally and he has willingly accepted. I am sure that if given a dimensioned sketch of an engine stand then Tom will come up with something.

The issue of health and safety has been raised. I will be preparing a " RISK ASSESSMENT to cover the event. I now will ask Gordon Cooper for advice, however the project would have to have supervision from responsible person(s). If we are ALL sensible then I any PROBLEM can be turned into a CHALLENGE.

George is totally correct - Preplanning will ensure success.

Drummond

[Alastair Gregg]

Reading Drummonds very positive post. Would it be an idea to have a rota of "responsible" people on duty. As to who is responsible when beating a lump of engine into submission is anyones guess, but if I qualify by being considerably over 18 or even 21 then count me in for a session. I will be bringing my old Dad with me to Crieff, so can't leave him to his own devices for too long. So the CHALLENGE is out, who else feels they can be responsible, if only for a little while?

[george garside]

Alastair
if well planned & rehearsed it should only take 'a little while' to put it together and start up!!!various bits of subterfuge can be indulged in to aid the process
- valves previously ground in then numbered for assembly positions

- points gap set in distributor

- coil premounted to dynamo or along with petrol tank to the 'stand'

- oil pump left fitted - nobody will notice!

- breather assbly ditto

- carb fully set up & assembled including choke mechanism

- 8hp cast exhaust stubs pre fitted to pots so 'exhaust system' is then just a good push fit.

engine mounting brackets can be pre bolted bolted to pots
- clutch can be ommitted even if gearbox fitted to provide rear mounting.

- sump can either be craftily filled before the start of assembly or if filled during the assembly p0ur oil in swiftly through back of crankcase before fitting shaft & back bearing.
etc etc etc.

Does anybody know what the faactory time for engine assembly was - it would be nice to be able to equal it,

spotless white coates should be worn by the assembly team and should dremain spotless throughout the proceedings.

george

[Keith Clements]

Does changing a block which cracked in racing Jup on the way from London to a race meeting in South West Wales count?

Arrived back in late evening, cleaned up a spare block and fitted it overnight and travelled down (5 hours) for start of race at about 10am. Unfortunately I just missed scrutineering! But the car made it and back with no problems. Total build time was about 4 hours; but that included taking the engine out and putting it back in.

[AlanBartlett]

A time trial would be good, perhaps do a couple of demos on the day or something, how about blindfolded ha ha anyone feeling they know the flat twin that well want to step up to the challenge?

[Alastair Gregg]

Lets all slow down to a raging gallop please

Alan wants to do the rebuild Blindfold several times a day Tony wants a complete car by 2010 and George wants us to equal or surpass the factory assembly time whilst remaining spotless in our white Dinner Jackets. I have a sneaking suspicion we could be talking ourselves into a hole here.

Alan has already dis assembled the engine and reckons the threads are clean and don't need replacing (his words). I have aquired a list of required components. I suspect we might need a trifle more detail such as piston size and there is a marvelous description of a "little cover thing" but I suspect our esteemed pre war specialist will put the JCL part description up on the forum faster than you could shake a con rod (please). The list :-

Pistons
Distributor Guts and Cap
Dynamo
1/4 5/8 nuts
The little cover things which go by the conrod in the engine
Head bolts

If you feel you could provide any or all of these parts then we would be most grateful. Do remember I am happy to re emburse your carriage costs.

Ok so I might have exagerated the first part of the post a little bit

[PAUL BEAUMONT]

A great venture and a novel idea. I have a derelect "7" engine that may donate some parts, but its been dumped for a long time!
I notice one "Young" lady is not mentioned. Maybe she could take on the task of photos and a write-up of the venture for the Jowett Juniors (Young Members) page in the Jowetteer????