Whats Next?

Tony Fearn · Post by **Tony Fearn** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:01 pm

Hi Keith.

I noticed that you've suggested 90's oil in the steering box of the early 30's Jowetts again instead of grease. There's a grease nipple on the top of the box which is the same as all the other grease nipples on the vehicle, so I would expect that the same grease gun can be used.

I don't know whether you are familiar with the pre-war steering box, but the design of it is rather agricultural, and it wouldn't hold oil for many minutes.

I've greased "Mary Ellen's" original steering box periodically for over 40 years, and have only this year replaced the bushes in it.

Good to have you back on-line again.

Tony.

george garside · Post by **george garside** » Fri Jul 20, 2007 11:22 pm

Kieth - I agree with Tony that grease is correct for Jowett manufactured prewar steering boxes which are effectively circular rack & pinion jobs - sometimes refered to as epicyclic but I don't think they fit the true definition of the latter. The Javelin box is the same principle but a bit more posh!
However the 1938 onwards 8hp vans were fitted with the same bishop cam box as the Bradford as was the 1940 AND 10. The tens from inception up to & includeng 1939 model year used the marles weller system. Both the Bishop & marles boxes use gear oil
george

Keith Andrews · Post by **Keith Andrews** » Sat Jul 21, 2007 10:03 pm

I have posted re this issue/rebuilding shaft, pins etc in the Breadford section
I have here wqhat the NZ jowett experts call the early box and later box.
The basic worm drive with the main shaft the pitman arm connects to either sits in the housing or may have a bush.
I have pasted the wear in this area past PPL like Neil Mooere and non engineeering experts
When grease is used, the side pressue on th shaft foeces the gease away from the area, and grease being non free flow dosent move back, resaulting in metal to metal contact.
Oil does, and heavy gear type oil is less resistant to being forced from the surfaces

The main diff between the early and late boxes is the later has the play adjustmenr nut on the top of the box...the early is adjusted with shims between the top cover and box body in the same way the end play adjustmebt is done on both.
There is no need to use a grease gun with oil...unscrewing the gease nipple bolt, and using a oil can down tru the hole does the same thing and better One can see the level
Filling or continuosly topping up with gease gun can resault in
1/If the steering shaft housing to box is poor, leacking in this area
2/If housing to box is good, eventually the oil over flowing from the top of the housing behind the steering wheel...

The above was confirmed a few months ago by a old guy I met who used to work/service jowetts.

Tony Fearn · Post by **Tony Fearn** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 1:13 am

Still don't agree with Pat and Keith about the lubrication of the early 30's steering box. Do agree with what George says. He and I can go back to 45 years of using the grease gun for this purpose.

You pays your money and you makes your choice. I'll stick to the grease gun for the regular servicing of the steering boxes on "Mary Ellen" and "Sarah Jane" (1934 and 1933 respectively).

Tony.

Keith Andrews · Post by **Keith Andrews** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 6:51 am

Still don't agree with Pat and Keith about the lubrication of the early 30's steering box

Without getting techy, is the Bradford box basically the same as the vintage? I know it is basically the same as the old english fords Austins etc, that are also ment to have oil rather than grease

And my Bradford manual mentions about using a grease gun and oil.

george garside · Post by **george garside** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:00 am

absolutely noth;ing like, as I maentioned in post here on 20th july it is a circular rack and pinion wich was fitted from about 1913 when wheel steering was introduced up to and including 1939 with the exeptions of the models I mentioned, The javelin box works on more or less the same principle. The pre war box in effect consists of an internaly toothed ring gear with a pinion on the end of the steering column meshing with it the drop arm is part of the internaly toothed ring gear- and its as simple as that!
george

AlanBartlett · Post by **AlanBartlett** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:19 pm

Considering its a GREASE nipple, Im going to stick with grease on this one

george garside · Post by **george garside** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 10:40 pm

Pat
I have no argument against oil being in general superior to grease as a lubricant ( I always used it on Javelin kingpins - but oiled them veryfrequently) However with the pre war steering boxes I would sooner have grease that is present rather than oil that may be absent!
george

Keith Andrews · Post by **Keith Andrews** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:01 pm

It is not a matter of which is more lubriacant, it is more the application and the nature of where the lub is required

Exteme examples
grease on a rack and pinion say a 4 poster hoist, here the movent is consitsnt and due to the sticky nature of grease, as it moves it constanly picks up and deposits

In a wheel bearings, both could be used, but seals are a problem and gease is generally used...but in diffs gearboxes oil dose the job

The Bradford style main shaft and nearing has a sidewaysl load and only moves a few degress....as the grease is pressed out, it cannot be re deposited, due to lack of full movement, and it will not pour or run back to the loaded surfaces, where as oil will

If u jack up the front end, move the sterring side to side, and feel where the shft comes out of the case thers should be NO sideways movement

Also just replacing bushes is NOT a fix....without going into great detail why, but it is the harder material that wears most, ie cranks, dizzy shfts, and steering shafts....

And as far as the Bradford type steering box goes...the JOWETT MANUAL SAYS OIL which conforms with basic engineering principles of what type of lubricant where.

george garside · Post by **george garside** » Sun Jul 22, 2007 11:14 pm

and for the pre war Jowett made boxes the pre war handbook & lub chart stipulates grease so presumably were all correct but talking at slightly croess purposes!

george

AlanBartlett · Post by **AlanBartlett** » Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:37 am

Well completed the brake checking for warn ones, nope all ok, so whats next?

Tony Fearn · Post by **Tony Fearn** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 1:20 am

Check toe-in on front wheels. See my post in the pre-war section. Incorrect toe-in wears the tyres something shocking, and they're about Â£100 a piece including VAT.

Make sure the tyres on the car are "fit for purpose". It's no use having lots of tread if the side walls are disintegrating.

Check back axle and gearbox oil levels.

Have you back-flushed the radiator to remove the crud?

Make sure the door catches are deep enough in their catch plates. There's a lot of flex in the body when you're going round a tight corner at 'speed'.
Put spacers behind the catch plates on the door pillars if necessary. Ken Warren used to have a back yard gate bolt on the passenger door of his 1933 Kestrel as it had a tendency to fling open on R.H.bends!!

Make sure the front seats are firmly anchored to the wooden floor. Reinforce with a steel plate under the floorboard if necessary.

Check the shock absorbers. Make sure they are bolted up tight. I see that Jowett Car Spares has re-made the rubber linkage bushes.

Tony.

Have you got her going yet? It's gone a bit quiet on that front.

Tony.

AlanBartlett · Post by **AlanBartlett** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:26 am

Hi Tony,

Ive checked and put in fresh oil in both the gearbox and back axle. Funny story actually I knew where the oil was drained out from but I did'nt know where it was put back into, then I found out it was those cross head screw caps, which I found a very small pick axe head fit perfectly into the slot so I could twist it open to re oil it. Also radiator have flushed through a couple times, have still yet to fill it up to the correct ammount (about 2litres) I think. In relation to your post Ive got the tyres, catches(all though they all are pretty good, apart from a hinge might need packing to level the passenger door). The front seats are on rails, But the screw that hold them into the wood have more or less buggerd the hole so they come loose just as quick as you tighten them. As for the starting of her, I'm waiting upon the dizzy cap to arrive from geoff, the phone call I received from him described my having more cracks than something didn't catch the tail end of his call anyhow that sounds like my problem then.

Post by **Forumadmin** » Sat Jul 28, 2007 9:54 am

Not that I know anything about pre-war or Bradfords; but...
I use a non-melting grease in wheel bearings which on long rallyies cured the problem of frequent top ups, grease over wheels as it wheeped out of the center hole and the likelihood of grease on the shoes if the seal happened to go. Such grease was not available in the 50s.

For the Jup rack I use oil, not grease, as this flushes out any grit that may have entered the system. It seems to be much better stopping the aly housing from wearing.

For gearbox and diff I use 30 and 90 oil respectively but with an additive which used to be Molyslip and is now another preparation that lubricates when dry. Once again a belt and braces approach for the long rallies.

I have thought about putting a self sealing compound in tyres that stops a puncture in its tracks; and would do that if I went on another long journey.

AlanBartlett · Post by **AlanBartlett** » Sun Aug 05, 2007 11:27 pm

Now that the engine is running, all ive got to do now is set up the track rod on the steering, cure all the water and oil leaks on the engine, set tappet clearence. Am I right in thinking that there is a gasket meant to go between the pot and the casting, ive got one on there now but its dry leaking and has no hylomar solution either. Also if I do remove the pot can I reuse the inlet manifold gaskets or do I replace them, as they are brand new gaskets fitted at present?.