A brains' trust problem.

[Keith Clements]

Here are the thoughts of some esteemed Jowett brains on a problem still unsolved.....

Gentlemen,
I apologise for sending out this message, but I am currently at the far end of my analytical thought processes.
The problem:
On switching on the car’s ignition system and then pressing the in-dash starter button, the starter engages and rotates the engine for about a quarter of a turn, then there is a squealing noise and the engine does not turn over. On Phil Squire’s video clip, it looks for all the world like a classic example of the Javelin/Jupiter one cylinder part filled with coolant. The sound that accompanies the video clip has a dog barking excitedly at the crucial moments. So far:
1. The engine has had its crankshaft rotated two complete revolutions and has four compression lumps. That means no coolant leakage into one cylinder and, after all the labour that I have put into this engine, all I can say is, “Thank goodness.” Such an event would be for me, the final straw – literally.

2. I have to confess that I have not visited Phil’s car for a diagnostic listening and viewing of what is going on. The reason for this neglect has been due to ambient heat, other activities and back pain. I apologise for that.

3. The problem has arisen after about 6,000 miles driven since the long drawn-out engine overhaul, and until the beginning of this week the starter motor has been performing beautifully. The problem arose after the car had been at rest for a spell – all of a sudden.

4. My initial thoughts revolved around a poor current supply to the starter motor, mainly concentrating on not so good quality earth straps at both the starter motor’s mounting flange and the cable from the battery terminal to chassis/body frame.

5. I asked Phil to be sure that all electrical connections to the starter motor, its solenoid and battery terminals and the condition of the battery.

6. My initial diagnosis, after looking at and listening to the video clips, was that the starter’s Bendix (pinion) flew into mesh with the starter ring-gear (that could be seen in the video clip) and then, as soon as the first compression was encountered, sort of ‘climbed out’ of mesh with the gear and then gnashed teeth after un-meshing itself. If that were the case, surely there would be evidence of accelerated wear and bits of metal around the pinion.

7. The starter motor was taken to Boronia Auto Electrical (another Phil), who had previously repaired a broken brass terminal stud on the starter motor. During that repair, it looks as though new brushes have been installed. The starter motor was placed on a test bench and found to perform perfectly, even with a load applied.

8. I then asked Phil to bring the starter to me for a looking over to try and establish if there was a fault. The findings were a free Bendix on its helix, a starter output shaft without any noticeable runout and the pinion was in good condition.

9. Then I asked Phil to apply ‘domestic science’ and make sure that all connections from the battery to the starter motor were clean and sound. This was carried out with still no positive result at all. The battery after charging was delivering more than sufficient voltage.

10. My thoughts then turned to the starter solenoid itself. I asked Phil to carry out some tests, such as pressing the rubber covered button on the solenoid, or, more brutally, shorting the two large solenoid terminals with an old screwdriver with insulated handle. Doing this resulted in exactly the same symptoms. No progress at all! We even tried a spare solenoid from the engine test stand. Still exactly the same result.

11. My thoughts, along the way had moved towards a broken crankshaft and the separate thrusts doing a very good job. Phil then reported that he could see the flywheel turning as he operated the starting handle. Great!

12. Then, consideration was given to ring-gear slippage on the flywheel. However, I am sure that would result in a clattering noise inside the clutch housing, that would have been evident previously. I have witnessed slippage on tractor engines, but never with a Jowett engine.

That is the story so far, my own thoughts are now turning to the ring-gear being installed on the flywheel the wrong way round. The gear was installed before I became involved with this engine and I do wonder about that, mainly because the car has been used for 6,000 miles-plus, and the starter motor has functioned without fault.
I feel very strongly that I have missed something very basic here, but my thought processes are getting a bit frazzled right now.
Thinking caps on please and, Phil and I are desperately hoping that someone out there can point out the errors of my diagnostic ways.
We look forward to some good suggestions as to what could be the cause of Phil’s concern.
Thank you all,
Mike A..


to Jowetteers all,

Hullo Mike, Phil and Jowetteers all,

From the clues, it seems to be a broken crankshaft. It could be possible to turn the engine two revolutions with the crank handle. The slow movement would allow a broken shaft to do this . But the extra speed provided by the starter could mean the broken joint would ride up on itself and lock further rotation. With all the starter testing you have done I think we could say this is OK and look elsewhere.

If you could rock the engine with a spanner on the crankshaft pulley nut maybe you could feel the roughness of a broken joint.

Tony G.

Hi All, Scotland calling,

Although, after reading carefully Mike’s list of points I tent to, slightly, agree with Tony regarding the Crankshaft theory. Now, working on the UK principal that an Oval Web shaft if fitted puts doubt in my mind ? With over 50 years of Jowetteering under my belt I have only come across ONE broken Oval Web Shaft.. and it had jammed solid in the Crankcase. My next thought was a problematic Con Rod causing the said bearing to seize up, however, as I have knowledge of Mike’s care and attention of “ the Staffordshire Knot “ I may dismiss this theory.

More thought required as Jupiter Window winders to renovate today !!! More later.

Drummond

Many thanks Tony,

Right to the bone marrow in one hit!!

I have sent Phil a copy of a forum discussion about MG TD (same age group) starter woes. My thoughts are now along the lines of pinion teeth profiles and such. There is quite a lot on the subject if ‘Lucas starter motor not engaging ring gear’ is Googled.

The only Jowett crankshaft I have broken was when I dropped a cracked shaft on the floor and it went to a three-piece shaft instantly. Would have been interesting if the shaft was in a car.

My Jupiter’s starter has been in the car since, to my knowledge, before 1963 and it has worked even with a measured 1/4” end-float at the crankshaft during first ownership, the engine was at its best in those distant times! George Mitchell, Thrums, Cleish, Scotland got the shaft.

My thought now is along the line of – does the starter motor have the correct Bendix/pinion?

All the very best,

Mike A.

[Keith Clements]

I would try to start the old fashioned way with a starter handle. That would eliminate many areas.
I would then examine the starter ring from under the car. The noise must be made either by it or the pinion and since the later has been checked out that should only leave the former. There is a faint possibility the flywheel has come loose but this could also be checked whilst under the car.

[PJGD]

I would vote for the ring gear coming loose. They can and do come loose on the flywheel; I have one around me right now where the ring gear has started to walk its way off the flywheel. It is now currently part way off and is no longer square relative to the crank axis. It should by snug up against the shoulder of the flywheel but there is in fact a variable gap there now [see photo]. That is to say, it is still on the flywheel and is not totally loose; it is just loose enough to move axially a little bit and possibly rotationally too.

If this is a correct diagnosis, then the flywheel must come off so that the ring gear can be reseated, ideally in a different angular position so that the starter Bendix drive addresses a different section of teeth. Then the ring gear needs to be secured with screws that lock the ring gear to the flywheel as shown in this photo. Ideally, one would rebalance the crankshaft and flywheel as a unit.

If this is not the problem, then we will be interested to hear what it actually was. . .

Philip

[Keith Clements]

Dear Mike & Phil,

I've heard a squealing noise come from a starter motor during failed cranks before, and need to hear Phil's noise to determine if it is the same noise - can you send me the video so that I can listen to the noise the engine makes? The noise I'm talking about is a high frequency squeal or screech that is very unpleasant, and not the more common grinding noise that occurs when the Bendix gear's teeth don't engage properly.

Have you confirmed, by looking with an endoscope while turning the engine over by hand (take the spark plugs out to make the job easy), that the ring gear is on the right way around and fully seated the whole way round. When the plus are out, you should check them visually for any signs of having been exposed to coolant. When the plugs are out, you might as well also have a look inside each cylinder with the endoscope and check for any signs of coolant, piston pickup in the bore, etc.

Have a close look at the Bendix gear using an endoscope.

I think that the fact that the starter has been working properly since the rebuilt engine was reinstalled in the car in June 2016 (how did Phil manage to put 6000 miles on the car since then???), means that something must have come loose, or failed, or leaked, or seized, rather than an incorrect Bendix gear on the starter motor.

In order to totally eliminate the broken crankshaft theory, why not just spend 10 minutes and measure the crankshaft end-float with a magnetic dial-indicator. Given that end-float is controlled at the rear main, a break forward of that means that there will be no end-float control, and so the front part of the crank will move way more than it should. Check the end-float after rotating the crank forwards, then again after rotating it backwards, and then again after just nudging it in the forwards direction in case there is a diagonal crack in the crank which usually happens. It would be very unlikely that the Laystall crank in the engine had broken, particularly as I'm sure you had it crack tested before the regrind.

I'll continue to think about the problem and get back to you after I've listed to the video.

Regards,

Andrew

Hi Phil,

Thanks for sending me the video; the sound you are hearing during the failed cranks is just the starter motor spinning without the Bendix gear engaged in the ring-gear. That is definitely not the squealing noise I have heard very rarely in the past, but instead it is quite a common noise caused by a total lack of engagement. The teeth on the Bendix gear are not touching any part of the ring gear teeth what-so-ever.

You need to establish why the Bendix gear is not engaging with the ring gear teeth:
1. Make sure that there are teeth still present on the ring gear at this compression position. Engines usually stop at a fairly consistent position up against the compression stroke in one or other of the cylinders. There are two compression strokes per revolution in a 4 cyl engine and so there are obviously two worn parts on a ring gear. Perhaps all the teeth are missing at this position, but this is very rare. You could hand crank the engine slightly past this position and then try the starter - if it cranks for half a turn and stops again while making the same noise, then you have an indication that this might be the problem. An endoscopic inspection with confirm if this is the case. Alternatively, just drop the bottom cover off the bell housing and inspect the ring gear from underneath while someone rotates the engine (with the spark plugs out).
This photo show a typical worn area on the ring gear (on the left) while the teeth on the right are virtually unworn. This wear pattern does not usually cause the problem you have though.

a1.jpg

2. Make sure that when the Bendix gear retracts as it engages, it moves far enough to engage with the ring gear. There could be an internal issue in the Bendix gear itself.


3. Make sure that the ring gear is still in the correct position up against the rebate on the flywheel. The Javelin engine is unusual in that the Bendix gear operates so as to push the ring gear off the flywheel rebate; the vast majority of engines are designed so that the Bendix gear pushes the ring gear towards the flywheel rebate. There is an occasional problem on Javelin engines where the flywheel moves sufficiently far backwards so that the Bendix gear no longer engages and hence the starter just spins uselessly. Your ring gear might be one of the ones that have ever so slightly larger ID, and thus it is not tight enough on the flywheel rebate. I rebuilt an engine with this issue back in the early 1970s and drilled & tapped 6 Unbrako set screws with flat washers into the flywheel so that the washers retained the ring gear. There was nothing to stop the ring gear rotating on the flywheel, but that is very unlikely and is actually an advantage if it does occur because it means that the ring gear teeth wear evenly all around the ring gear rather than wearing in just two places! One way to both secure the ring gear and prevent it rotating on the flywheel is to drill & tap the set screws half in the ring gear & half in the flywheel; I've seen this done too - very effective, but not as easy as just drilling & tapping into just the flywheel.

This photo shows exactly the same solution where they needed to secure the ring gear to a very light aluminium flywheel:

a2.jpg

4. An electrical problem might cause this cranking issue to occur, but I can see that the Bendix gear moves promptly and that the starter pins up nicely, so this seems an unlikely root cause, particularly given all the checks you have done already.

My bet is that your ring gear has moved back on the flywheel. I'm willing to put a small sum on this being the root cause. A visual inspection after dropping the bottom cover will confirm this. Alternatively, I have an endoscope and could come up to Melbourne and inspect it for you.

I don't believe it is possible to remove the flywheel from the engine without taking the engine out of the car, in order to replace the ring gear or add retaining bolt to the flywheel. Comments anyone?

Best regards,

Andrew

Ah! The plot thickens with the starter pinion not engaging the ring gear. But this doesn’t explain one of Mike’s original clues that the engine was turned about a quarter of a revolution before the squealing began. Nevertheless, ring gear teeth problems and positioning on the flywheel are easily checked after removing the bottom cover.

To remove the flywheel, the gearbox has to be removed to disengage the clutch shaft to drop the clutch pressure plate and clutch plate, to access the flywheel retaining bolts. So it’s an engine out job.

Tony G.

Hi Tony,

The early part of the video shows that the Bendix gear initially engaged for a fraction of a second and started rotating the engine, but it then hit a compression stroke and at the same time the starter then spins up and the engine flicks backwards off compression. The Bendix gear then fails to engage with the crankshaft in this position despite numerous attempts. It is a little hard to tell if the engine actually made it over the first compression, and perhaps the ¼-turn is not accurate.

My theory is that the Bendix gear initially engaged at the position where the engine stopped the last time, and then because the ring gear had been pushed back off the rebate part the way around, it got to the point on compression where the Bendix gear & ring gear teeth no longer engaged, and so the starter motor spins up to max revs. Perhaps the ring gear moved a little further in the attempt they videoed and it now no longer engages at this point either.

I would be out under the car dropping the bottom cover before looking at anything else.

Yes, I too had concluded that the engine has to come out to remove the flywheel. It would of course be possible to simply tap the ring gear back onto the rebate in situ, but this would probably be a temporary fix as it would most likely be knocked off again once back in regular use. I wonder if you could clean up the ring gear & rebate in situ with Loctite 7471 Primer "T" spray, and then use Loctite 601 to wick into the gap between the ring gear & the flywheel, before tapping the ring gear back into place. Loctite 601's low viscosity means it is suitable for wicking, and its medium cure speed with a long fixture time on steel of 25 minutes gives you time to work the ring gear back into place. As it could mean you avoid having to pull the engine out, it might be worth a try.

Cheers,

Andrew

Gentlemen,

I have spoken to Phil and will be having a look and listen (to the somewhat negligible ability of Siemens instruments in my ears) to what is going on, just after 3:30 pm today.

My course of action will be as follows:

1. Ask Phil to organise a sympathetic tilt-tray operator to bring the Javelin here.

2. The car to be rolled off into my RHS garage. Pea Soup will have to be relegated to the car port for a spell.

3. Most likely, we will have to organise a working session to push the Javelin up the slope to my workshop. I will have to move the Jupiter for this first.

4. I am extremely loathe to remove the engine yet again. The flywheel should be removable from my pit.

5. Should a broken crankshaft be diagnosed, please bury me in my pit – i.e. I have no desire to open up that engine again.

6. We shall see what develops after today’s inspection.

Should there be a loose ring-gear, I will definitely not repair by welding – as some have.

All the best,

Mike A.

Dear Mike,

Can I suggest that rather than paying for a tilt-tray to move the Javelin to Boronia, you simply drive it there! We can push start the car on the street outside where ever it currently is, or even better you can bump start it on a hill if there is one handy. Just don't stall it or turn it off until it is up in your workshop over the pit in Boronia.

How can you get the flywheel off the end of the crankshaft without removing the engine from the car? The gearbox goes through the chassis x-member, so you can't remove the gearbox in order to get the pressure plate off the back of the flywheel in order to get at the flywheel bolts!

100% agreed; don't weld the ring gear to the flywheel, but surely Loctite is worth a try.

Cheers,

Andrew

Dear Mike,

You could also hand crank the engine into life and drive the car over to Boronia!

Andrew

Hi Andrew.

Thanks for that additional explanation. Your theory is the the most logical to fit these facts. And so easy to check.

Your Loctite idea is certainly worth a try. It might be all that is needed to hold the ring gear and, at worst, can’t do any harm.

Tony.

P.S. No mention has been made about trying to start the engine with the crank handle. My Jav will start easily this way. It would be sensible to have someone ready to turn the key off! T.

Hi Tony,

Yes, my brother Mac's Javelin also starts very easily on the crank handle; I've done it many times! The benefits of a 7.2:1 compression ratio. I used to own a very early Isuzu Bellett, and being a poor student at the time, I had no spare cash for a new battery, so I hand cranked it for quite a while. The crank handle hole in the front bumper was behind the front numberplate, which was hinged at the top to allow it to be lifted up to access the hole - standard Isuzu design in the early 1960s. If you stopped suddenly, the plate would pivot forwards and then clank back into place against the bumper! I remember running out of fuel in that car many times, although occasionally I was lucky and it conked out while rolling onto the forecourt. It got a bit embarrassing having to push the car up to the pump and then hand crank it into life afterwards, so I eventually lashed out on a new battery!

Given that they have already turned Phil's Javelin engine through a complete cycle by hand, I can't see hand crank starting the engine as being likely to cause any issues, unless the ring gear falls off the back of the flywheel! I would hand crank it through two turns with the ignition off (to check once again for coolant in a cylinder), then immediately hand prime the fuel bowls using the lever on the pump, then turn on the ignition, and then hand crank it until it starts.

Cheers,

Andrew

hanks Keith,

Really appreciate that you placed this on Jowett Talk. I have tried to log-in, new password was required and I went through all of that, but still cannot manage to add my latest findings to the discussion.

I think I have a confounded bug in my computer that stops all things with passwords. I cannot get into my PayPal account, nor can I get into my JR Wadhams (Rover Spares) account either. The PayPal thing has been most frustrating because I have tried to pay my JOAC and JCC subscriptions. Thus I am now probably classed as a later payer od bills through no fault of my own. The PayPal folk are so damned customer unfriendly, it is unbelievable. For being anti-social, they are a long way in front of Microsoft!

Enough of my woes!

I went to have a look at Phil’s Javelin and as soon as a torch was shone through the timing window, it was obvious that the brand new ring-gear had slid rearwards on the flywheel.

So, engine out and more work.

Once the local computer technician has sorted my password (all on a USB stick thing) problems I will endeavour to place a report on Jowett Talk.

Trust you are keeping well and the US-Canada-Alaska trip went well.

All the best and thank you,

Mike A.

Gentlemen,

The problem is solved.

The starter ring-gear has moved rearwards about 4 mm at the point where I looked at it.

The plan of action is for Phil to get the engine out, bring it here and it will then be worked on from a bench.

Then the method of gear retention on the flywheel will be looked into.

Frankly, I am somewhat devastated at present and am now worried about my thoughts on initial diagnosis. I now realise that it was the condition of the starter motor’s earth strap that made me think about electrics first. I was fairly certain that the crankshaft was OK because it had been crack tested and given a clean bill of health. I did not manage to get to the car due to various reasons, but other club’s activities that I am involved in tended to take priority. In addition to that, my back/hips areas told me not to get under cars.

While the engine/gearbox is in my workshop, would anyone be prepared to investigate a jumping out of second gear concern?

All the best,

Mike A.

Dear Mike & Phil,

I'm glad that the root cause has been identified. It's a pain to have to pull the engine out again, but modifying the flywheel by adding 6 retaining set screws is the only approach that is 100% guaranteed to be totally reliable in my opinion.

Regarding the gearbox issue, did anyone check the linkage adjustment to ensure that the problem wasn't in this area? Unfortunately, I know very little about the internals of the JCL gearbox or is this one a Meadows box not that it makes any difference as far as my knowledge goes. I'm happy to check all the usual stuff like the detent springs, and look for excessive wear on the selector rails, and in the selector housing, and in the operating levers themselves, but if it is a synchro ring related problem, I don't know anything about them and so I would have to pass the job to someone else at that stage.

Cheers,

Andrew

Hi All, Unfortunately, Jowett incorrectly machined the flywheel and they finished up with the shoulder on the wrong side of the ring-gear. Whenever I have come across a Javelin where the ring gear has come away from the shoulder I sit it back against the shoulder then “Scotch Key” it by using 3 grub screws. The holes need to be drilled at 120 degrees to each other with the holes being half into the flywheel and half into the ring gear. This has to be done carefully as the drill tends to go towards the softer metal of the flywheel. I normally use 5/16”dia X ½” long grub screws and install them with Loctite studlock. I have never seen a ring gear move after doing this. Use Trefolex or similar steel cutting compound when tapping the thread.
Phil, do you want to send your gearbox up to me to have a look?
Kind regards,
Brian.

Thanks Andrew,

For all of your input on this.

First, I did give consideration to a rolling start and drive the car here, however, after seeing how far the ring gear has moved rearwards, I would not wish to have any inside tangling going on inside the housing should the gear decide to go walkabout en route. The engine has to come out no matter what and I think Phil and I have come to the right decision on the logistics of this aspect.

The methodology of effecting the ring-gear retention repair will be discussed with our local engineer, who can accurately set up the assembly and use an indexing head to drill and tap for retention hardware that may be used in the repair.

The gearbox, when I played around with the gear-change lever, it felt as if it was going into position properly. I have been thinking along the lines of a garage session to point out repair methods for the ring-gear and an inspection of the gearbox with the side cover removed. We have to note that the 1st and 2nd sliding dog (50033) has ‘dog’ teeth that, under moderate torque lock second gear after the synchroniser has performed its task. If there is wear in this area, and without a good number of parts to select and try from, not too much can be done. We can though, have a good look at the selector mechanism and, maybe, have a good go at that area. I think the gearbox is a Meadows unit, I do not remember seeing the dreaded ‘J’ stamped into the casing – but then, who knows what has gone on before?

My Jupiter has been jumping out of second gear for some time now, but that does not worry me unduly, I just hold the gear lever in place when accelerating with a bit of oomph. First gear hangs in well, so I am happy with that.

All the best,

Mike A.

Greetings Brian, Mike, Andrew, Phil and all Jowetteers who have been following this problem,

Firstly, well done Andrew for a great bit of Jowett sleuthing in correctly analysing the problem. I was way out!!

As Brian has said, 3 scotch keys are a permanent fix.

Re the gearbox, pity I wasn’t a bit closer because I’ve reconditioned a few, Meadows and J-boxes, and have all the jigs and machine tools for re-bushing casings, machining for thick centre washers, repairing the internal gearchange mechanism etc. In most cases, internal wear is the problem and can be fixed.

I was hanging on the computer screen for the past two days; I guess we’ll all sleep better tonight! But that’s Jowetteering; where would we be without it?

Kind regards to all,

Tony.

[Keith Clements]

See the last long post for how the solution developed. But can I add that I did fix this same problem 30 years ago leaving the engine in situ. I put 6 tack welds to hold the ring once it had been put back in place. No problems since and the tacks can easily be ground off to remove or rotate the ring. Other engines have had the set screw treatment when rebuilt.

Loctite is an easy solution although it might make subsequent rotation of the gear impossible such that it would have to be split with a grinder to get it off.

[Keith Clements]

Thanks Tony,

The saddest thing about all of this is that distance separates us quite a bit. My first post on this subject was just a little bit ‘pulling all of us out of the woodwork’ sort of thing, along with those overseas Jowetteers I admire too. To me, it is very sad that New Holland no longer pay my interstate and overseas trips where probably Jowetts were talked about much more than combine harvesters and, later, tractors. They were good times and I still appreciate them greatly. The trouble now is that, if we go overseas, Sue makes a very valid caution, “Don’t make it a Jowett trip!” also, when I was in the planning stages for my Antarctic Expedition Cruise, Sue on reading the itinerary, commented, “I bet you find a Jowett in the Falklands or, failing that, on South Georgia Island.” As I was on my own for the trip, it would have been amazing to find one of those ex-WD Jowett industrial engines quietly generating power for modern scientists!!

Getting back to topic, I now have to clear up my misunderstanding of Phil’s video clip. It has always been said that a good workman never blames his tools. Now, I really wonder, does that apply to hearing instruments? Live, the sound, to me, was completely different from what I heard in the video. Andrew, obviously has very good hearing and I dare say that if Sue (she who hears all), knew what it was all about, would have identified the problem too. From my aspect, I was too wrapped up in pinion teeth clashing with gear teeth and, thus I tended to insufficient electrical current (kick) to get the Bendix to engage fully. That was probably orchestrated by my doubts related to the solder joints on the starter motor’s earth strap – a very important part of the circuit.

While I was assembling the engine, I set up the flywheel assembly and, with a hammer and aluminium drift, gave the ring-gear a ‘penny-half penny’s worth’ hit rearwards, and it felt tight on the shoulder. I also tried inserting a 0.001-in feeler gauge between the rebate and the ring-gear’s face. Not possible and so I thought all was well. Obviously, my test was in the wrong place on the circumference. If the gear had moved, I would have used a known method of retention – that I should have done anyway, I realise now.

I have seen flywheels with stitches of arc welding to hold a ring-gear in place. Not at all successful, dissimilar metals and all that. We know, but others do not!

My thanks and admiration go to Phil, for his patience and forbearance on this entire engine saga.

Will certainly keep folk posted on findings and developments.

All the best,

Mike A.

[Keith Clements]

Hi all, have only come in on the end of this, with Sid Bradford I am at present putting a PB jav ( 2nd oldest in NZ left) back together near Palmerston Nth for a wedding in 3 weeks time! The owner died a week after Xmas.
Regarding the ring gear, it has obviously moved a reasonable distance to miss the starter drive gear. To avoid the taking of the engine and gearbox out of car, pull plugs to make turning engine easier, remove clutch housing cover, and using the green bearing mount LOCTITE put a bead of it around the flywheel where the ring gear will end up, and turning the engine by hand tap the ring gear back into place. Leave for 24 hrs for the Loctite to cure and job done! A check say 3 monthly to make sure all ok .
If however there are other reasons for removing eng/gbox do whatever suits. It is not possible to remove flywheel without removing g/ box Mike as the spigot shaft goes into the centre of the flywheel boss of crank.
For what it's worth, when I assemble an eng with a new ring gear, I put the ring gear in the oven at 250deg C and the flywheel in the freezer for say 30 mins, Loctite the flywheel as above and drop in place, tapping with copper hammer if necessary to the shoulder. Haven't had a problem for years.
It's wise to send the wife out while this operation is carried out as 250deg C is at the top end of the ovens range and it could be a bit smelly!? Have fun. Neil Moore

[Mike Allfrey]

A big thank you to all respondents on this.

Having managed to get in on my password this time, I will try to keep you up to date on the repair process. A small aspect about the repair procedure is this, I have elected to carry out the repair on my work bench with another interest to be executed. Once the flywheel is off the crankshaft, it is my intention to see how the rear main oil seal is coping. The reason for this is because the crankcase mating joint faces were machined so that weld distortion could be cleaned up. This means that the flywheel/clutch housing could be slightly out of position. I also suspect that the housing does not match the crankcase assembly, the front timing cover certainly didn't and that component's seal appears to be holding. Again, you will be kept informed.

Please be aware that this is my first, in 56 years of Jowett ownership that I have encountered a loose ring gear. Have I been lucky?

Let's get to it!

Mike A.

[ian Howell]

In conclusion:- A fascinating exercise in long distance cooperation! Well done to all concerned. Apollo 13 limps to mind.

In passing, for some years I was a Technical Representative for a UK distributor of Loctite and I would like to comment:-

Once cured, the various Loctite locking products become solid acrylic plastic. To release metals joined this way, e.g. bearings, studs, nuts & bolts, simply warm them up gently until the acrylic soften,s then remove as normal. This limited degree of heating should not affect any hardening or tempering of the component or even degrade Mazak (Zinc alloy) e.g carburettor bodies.

It is then necessary to thoroughly clean up any remaining acrylic before reassembly with new Loctite.

Superglue is different!

[Mike Allfrey]

Thanks Ian,

I have good faith in the Loctite products, my only concern is what happens in years to come and someone who does not know what was bonded or, what it was bonded with? Loctite is an admired product that, still, very few understand - down here anyway!

I have a flywheel and ring gear assembly sitting on my bench at present. Where from? I know not! However, it has received the tack-weld treatment and, yes, the gear has migrated rearwards by some millimetres. All welds have cracked away from the flywheel parent metal. I will clean it and photograph for future placing here as an example. The welding method is years old and, in my own experience with tractors, the flywheel is cast iron and the gear is tempered steel. I have never seen a successful weld in that situation. I think the welding on the flywheel I have, has ruined the flywheel itself.

Once the engine is out of the car, it was over 30 degrees C in the shade here today, it will be interesting to find out how loose the gear actually is.

Will keep you informed. Mike A.