Water in the sump

[rob needs]

I spotted a water leak coming from somewhere near the back of the timing cover.It only started after i drained off and filled up with an anti freeze mix.Its coming out clean and not from any hose's.

Thought i'd look at the dip stick,it showed about an inch past the full mark,looks milky too.Got to be water i reccon,where am i going to start with this problem.I had both the heads off and skimed last year.

[TedAllen]

hi Rob,
Anti freeze will often find places to leak where plain water doesn't.
I f you are confident that the heads are ok. Then I would suspect the timing cover gasket first or the liner seals. When I build an engine I fit up the block with the minimum needed to retain coolant. I seal off the bottom hose inlets and hang the engine up without the sump on.. I put the top hose on the timing cover and then fill up with water.
I place a clean dry drip tray...B & Q do excellent cheap seed trays in plastic....with some newspaper in it and leave it for a couple of days. Not only can you see any drips but you can pinpoint which liner is leaking or if it's the front cover. You can do the same with the engine in the car, just take the sump off.
Good luck and I hope it's the timing cover gasket and not anything worse.
Ted

[David Morris]

Dear Rob,

Sorry to hear about the water in the sump. All the advice above is good stuff but I think Pat Lockyer had a good tip about seeing which side of the crankcase was causing the problem, if indeed the liner seals are to blame. I believe he drains down most of the water from below the level of the pump, then takes off the two water transfer pipes at the front of the block. This leaves some water visible in the 'mouth' of the holes in the crankcase. He then starts the engine for a minute or so and sees if one of the water 'pools' has bubbles in it. This at least hepls to isolate which side of the crankcase is giving the problem.

As for the water on the top of the engine, I find that the large hose clips on the short vertical rubber pipe under the water pump are usually the problem. These always seem to leak, and mine frequently need 'nipping up'.

Javelin and Jupiter owners get so worried about water leaks in engines that have an unfortunate history of losing water, that they start looking for serious problems, when it may be just the searching action of antifreeze. What % did you use? I usually go for 50% to avoid aluminium corrosion, and this does put a big strain on clips, seals and hoses. Perhaps the old idea of draining down in winter overnight would avoid much anxiety!

All the best,

David

[rob needs]

I remember that trick of pats,thing is,i'v taken the sump off and oil pump now, and the rocker covers off.The sump oil had lots of water in it.I'v had a look up inside,cant see no drips yet.I'm doing what Ted said about checking for drips,I'v put a piece of hardboard under the engine.Maybe it will only leak under load!.

What if after a couple of days there are no drips.Do i reasemble the bottom and go for the Pat trick, checking for bubbles.

[David Morris]

Dear Rob,

I can see what you are up against now. Have you access to a radiator pressurising kit? These have a radiator cap adapted to take a tyre pump and allow you to increase the pressure in the system, even when the engine is cold.

I have often wondered if these kits would be useful in diagnosis of cylinder liner sinkage, which is what I suspect you are unfortunately suffering from.

Does anyone else have experience of these kits on a Javelin engine?

All the best,

David

[Keith Andrews]

Pat mentions

water leakage from the studs

Im have never one a javlin engine...
On a SB chey V8 this is not an unusual issue with head and valley cover studs/bolts.
Plumbers Teflon thread sealant cream sealant in a tube we have found is the best sol'n when assenmbling an engine...its not cheap but worth every penny.

[rob needs]

That water looks like its seeping from the gasket on the timing rear case cover.I'v had that off a few times trying to stop the oil leak.The water pump was a recon from a chap up north,not long back,and the hoses look dry+drain hole.

Last year i had a problem with steam coming out the back end (the car i mean)so i had the liners out on the near side(because i hardly had any protrusion) I got some copper liner seals from Bill Lock.I put gasket sealer on them both sides and put the liners back in.Those copper liner seals,do they go in on their own like i'v done.or should there be another seal with them.

[Keith Andrews]

KA, do you use your cream at the top or bottom!!!!

I dont know the setup on jowett....
On the SB chevy some of the head bolts go into the water jacket, as do some of the valley cover (inlet manifold)
The cream is put on the threads...same as on uses lockite a couple drops/very light smaer only....
Its also std usage for professional builders /race engines etc here Aussie/States.

Found my new tube...
It is Locktite 567 Thread sealant
"Master pipe sealant with PTFE High Temp Forumulation"

We use it on all the threads, it also very good at stopping theads from corroding/locking over very long periods

[Forumadmin]

Water in oil. Could be head gasket, cracked block; but most likely no solder or teflon tape on the head studs.
Water behind timing cover . Probably leaking water pump. Let it run 100 miles to bed the seal. Water drips from relief hole. Do not block as it will run into bearing on shaft.

[David Morris]

Hi Rob,

Your question about the bottom liner seals.

On the majority of engines I believe there used to be special seals between the shoulder of the liners and the crankcase. These are made of Klingerite and are almost black in colour. With them are the copper shims to adjust the liner protrusion. I am not sure whether the copper shims go under or on top of the Klingerite seals, or if this matters.

The exceptions to this are the very late engines that used 'O'rings in a groove machined into the liner shoulder, and these use no shims.

However, I have copied Mike Alfrey's comments on liners on the Jowett website :-

'The Jowett engine features ‘wet’ cylinder liners, which means that they are in contact with the engine’s coolant and they have to perform extra functions other than having the bore for the piston to travel up and down. It is essential that they be installed correctly. Firstly, the original style gaskets must not be used to seal the base at the crankcase seat surface. These gaskets, over a period of time, allow the liner to sink and permit the combustion gases to pass into the engine coolant.

Cylinder liners should be installed with calculated copper shim and spacer packs to provide between 0.006â€

[rob needs]

Thing is Pat,that small lip that the seals seat on doesn't look the flatest to me.I would be worried that just grease would not give the water tight seal needed.

I'm going to check it for drips in a bit.

[TedAllen]

Hi Rob,
Lots of advice there from the lads. I fit my liners with copper shims only, I have had no trouble with leakage from them. One point mentioned above was the hose clips attaching the pump to the top of the timing cover. I had assumed that you had already checked this area but I have found that the majority of clips sold over the counter now are absolute crap. I can get genuine Jubilee clips locally but I have found that the best clips to use, if you have a few in your spares box, are the original ones used by Jowett at assembly. Although 55 years old these are much better made than 'accessory shop' ones which are difficult to tighten and may leak when hot and under pressure...even 4psi or so.
Regards
Ted

[Keith Andrews]

Few comments on Jubblee clips...
There is an older cheap style that worm drive works on grooves
Even if new, throw them in the bin..
There is a better made style with a stainless housing and worm drive with a 8mm hex head that works in 'cuts in the brand part...
These are better, but often if over tighten or reused, the band 'slots' distort as do the worm housing

Then there is the All Stainless.. worn drive, worm housing, and band are Stainless. These take a huge amount of abuse and reuse..

Another note...over tighten a jubblee clip can cause it to leak, espec if the ID of the hose doesnt match the OD of the pipe....a fix for this is clean the hose ID of the hose and pipe, then smear a little RTV silicone on the surfaces. Then leave for an hr or so before pressurising..The Rtv not only helps seal but when left on for many yrs, aids in easy removal.
The correct 'tightness' rule of thumb for the Stainless clips is do up till the top surface of the band is level with the surface of the hose.

[rob needs]

I checked all the hose's and clips,the pat trick of checking for bubbles was inconclusive.I didn't see any,anyhow,i'v put in some super duper sealer in now.Yes i know its not the thing to do,i didn't fancy striping down the head today.
We will have to wait and see what happens next.

[Mike Allfrey]

Dear Rob,

It seems there is plenty of advice out there!

When I build a Javelin/Jupiter engine, I use the following techniques:

1. At the cylinder liner shims, only apply a small smear of Loctite 518 Master Gasket to the face of the shim that contacts the aluminium surface. The sealant grows while curing, probably the only time in your life that you get something free! But then Loctite is dear enough!

2. For the same reason as above, I only apply minimal Loctite 518 to the aluminium crankcase faces where the cylinder head gasket makes contact.

3. I settle for 0.006" cylinder liner protrusion.

4. When fitting the cylinder head nuts, I apply a small bead of Loctite 518 around the cylinder head studs, then install the plain washer and finally tighten the nuts on oiled threads.

5. And, most important, at the centre head stud with the water seal ring, I install the seal, then a small diameter plain washer that just fits into the seal ring's recess and mount a large diameter plain washer over the small washer with a bead of Loctite 518.

Has anybody mentioned the use of a bottle of Wynn's Radiator Stop Leak??

If it is good enough for a Jaguar V-12, it is surely suitable for a Jowett. The Jaguar Service Manual states that, at engine overhaul time, Radiator Stop Leak (BarsLeaks) MUST be used! That was in the genuine manual - not an El-Cheapo version.

Good luck!

Mike Allfrey.