antifreeze

[ian Howell]

Is this material readily available? Does it go under trade names? Is it available in smaller quantities than one might expect are needed for heavy trucks and buses?

Has anyone tried it on Jowett engines of any age - I think they all contain most of the metals mentioned somewhere or other.

Is anyone using it currently and with what results - if any?

[Forumadmin]

Ian,
Yes some of these formulations are available e.g. in the Comma range (Halfords) look for the G05 and G48 medallions on the containers. But I would hope up until now you have all put the old blue IAT based coolant in your Jowetts.

I know this thread has introduced a lot of fact, a lot of hearsay and a lot of marketing hype. Well I have just trawled through the next stage, notably the BS standards, which actually make some interesting reading. I found this Google book when I linked the inventor Oliver Evans patents into a Google search. Join me here. After 27 pages you get through the interesting history of coolants into the 1960's and 3 BS standards. Reading on you get to the 1980's with lots of technical nuggets. You come out with the feeling that every engine type is different and so finding a modern formulation for a Jowett might be a long process. What I found very enlightening is that the anti-freeze itself (ethylene glycol) is the main contributor to corrosion, not the water. This is why some of the inhibitors are needed.

I am in frequent communication with Evans distributor as the next avenue to go down is that of waterless coolants. But they have yet to come up with test results to substantiate the marketing claims, but they are trying! I am very sceptical when they say "no water = no corrosion" and does Jay Leno put the same mix in all his cars? and why recommend a different formulation for Vintage? sounds to me you have to match the waterless coolant formulation to the engine spec.......not that "all old cars need Vintage coolant"!

Watch this.. the first episode and this update.

This is a lovely quote from the thread after the video which expresses my thoughts in a much better way.

I hate water, and it's a novel idea. But what has me scratching my head is the fact that boiling water has a plateau temp of 212 deg F, absorbing change of state energy until enough gas boils off. Then only the less dense water vapor superheats. Steam billows out the pressure relief valve and you shut down quickly. But with a higher boiling point? No plateau. The fluid can heat up to a more damaging temp before it steams over. Like cooking in oil rather than water, stuff cooks faster.

Which is great if you are not watching the temperature gauge. On a Jowett the temperature goes down if the gas is blowing your water out and just starts to rise when there is not much water left and steam circulates over the bulb. Thus this waterless coolant might be good as you would see the water gauge rise (if you were looking at it). But you do need to do that at least every 5 minutes of every day you are driving the car. No looking at the scenery.

I also suspect that this stuff is just 99% glycol (either propylene or ethylene). You may like to revisit the graphs I referenced to see that ethylene freezing point rises with concentrations over 70% whereas propylene glycol stays constant. Glycol is very viscous so I am asking these guys what effect that has. Some recommend changing to a higher volume thermostat and higher volume pumps, not something we can easily do!

Quote from Evans Cooling.

Also, the formula today is very different from what existed in the 1990's

Which is why I am spending time doing this research!

Here is another to investigate. http://liquidintelligence115.co.uk/

[Forumadmin]

My questions response in red.

. Is it correct that the Power Cool is ethylene glycol based and the Vintage is propylene glycol based?

1. No, both power and vintage are from the same base chemical, but with different inhibitors. The whole range is the same base chemical.

2. What are the viscosity characteristics of the Vintage formulation in cold weather compared to water or ethylene/water mix? This is important as Jowett have low pressure difference water pumps?

2. I don't have a viscosity figure for this other than I have seen power is slightly less viscose than the others, and is only slight more viscose than water/ethylene. I have been assured if it has a mechanical water pump, Evans is better water or water mix.

3. They are also on the hot side of the system so cavitation performance is important. Do have the relevant test report on this aspect, please?

3. Nothing is better than Evans for cavitation protection, as it does not boil like water, your water mix will start to boil at approx 130 degrees, Evans is stable to 193. I am yet to receive the ASTM results, techs say they will get it for me.

4. What is the difference in heat transfer capability (not boiling point) compared to water or ethylene/water mix? This is important as Jowett have low volume water pumps.
4. Nothing is better than water, nor likely to ever be from cold, but that's not when you want it, at approx 90 degrees Evans becomes as good as water. The advantage being the cars will warm up quicker, which is better for the engine, better for economy, not that is an issue here, and once at temp be better protected from cavitation, and corrosion, which with a low volume pump becomes even more important.

Evans is a revolutionary product, no one knows its ingredient and Evans are never likely to make it known, you must appreciate that is business sense. It has been proven in racing and with classic cars for the last 2-3 years, it's used at Beaulieu and Jaguar heritage, they would not be using a product in there collection if they were not confident.

[Forumadmin]

Dear Mr. Clements,

Glysantin® G05® should work for your 1950 Jowett cars.

Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With kind regards
Ihr Glysantin® Team / Your Glysantin® Team

Phone: +49621-60 0 Fax: 5 E-Mail: glysantin@basf.com
Postal Address: BASF SE, 67056 Ludwigshafen, Germany

BASF - The Chemical Company

Please can you advise the best coolant for 1950 Jowett car with aluminium block, cast iron head and some copper and brass components. Some cars have steel radiators, some copper and some aluminium. So if different coolants are required for these please advise.

[Forumadmin]

Trevor phoned and said he had been enjoying driving his Jup yesterday with his Granville Red (OAT) installed, but after speaking with the supplier (who was not helpful) is going to take it out. Asked Trev to look at water and rad to see if there is a difference. He has had no leaks yet , so it might be OK after all. Who knows? Here are the specs. They do a blue (IAT)which specifically says it is suitable for aly engines. So does that imply the red is not? Typical, very skimpy and unhelpful marketing.

[ian Howell]

Keith: -

Thanks for your reply and for the efforts you are making on the club's behalf. Much appreciated. A summary (eventually!) in Jowetteer might help those who do not have access to the internet.

I have always (well, since 1963) used Smiths Bluecol (when it was available) in all my Jowetts as recommended by Jowetts in the Javelin data. I still use a 'blue' antifreeze but from this topic I now wonder what I have ACTUALLY been using!

The pre-war cars of course are cast iron 'pots' and aluminium only in the inlet manifold, no waterways in the crankcase. Copper and brass in the usual places.

I am debating whether to run up my engine until it is nice and warm and then drain it for the winter rather than leave stagnant antifreeze solution in the system.

What is the word from our 'Oracles'?

[Forumadmin]

I hope to meet the Evans guys at NEC tomorrow or Saturday. From Gary at Evans...

(Be sure to check out the stand Ask for Nathan or Colin Jones)

It is extremely difficult to judge if the 'blue' IAT antifreeze' could be bettered for our almost stagnant use of our cars. What is certain is that 95% of all Jowett engines have suffered corrosion. Was this because that for 30 years of their life they may not have had anti-freeze and systems were otherwise kept from freezing, was it because draining the systems left just enough high oxygen water present to speed up corrosion, was it because the initial anti-freeze was worse than water for corrosion, was it because the antifreeze was not changed regularly to replenish the inhibitors, was it because distilled water was not used every time, was it because bits of the other metals in the system settled on the block and galvanic corrosion took place?

I am sure that much research and some new chemicals can now provide a better solution, but who will spend over £130 to put coolant into their Jowett?

Perhaps it is worth it. If you use Blue then you will need £20 worth of concentrate and say £10 of distilled water every 2 years. Plus say an hour of garage time to drain and flush say £30. So that is £30 a year. So if you keep your car for 5 years the 'for life' coolant will pay for itself. The only danger is that a leak will loose your precious coolant during those 5 years. I am still sceptical that "for life" is more than 5 years and I would probably review the situation after 5 years. Technology will have changed anyway.

If you use G-05 then you can probably save money as the concentrate is not that much dearer and it does not have to be changed for 5 years. Note the 5 year life may assume that an expansion tank is fitted to reduce the oxygen uptake into the water.

The difference with the Evans coolant is that it should be better in hot weather as it maintains heat transfer capability. Most Jowett heads run at 90C plus and that is when the water starts cavitating around the liners and the water pump, since we run with low pressure caps. Thus temperature runaway caused by the local boiling that reduces heat transfer should not occur and not stress the engine when using the waterless coolant. The cavitation allegedly sucks the metal away quite rapidly. Personally I have not seen our pumps and liners seriously suffer from this. The main issues are corrosion of the bottom of the block and blockages in the head and rad. It seems that the G05 and possibly the Evans can help with this. But whatever you choose do not put hard or acid water into your system (even though G-05 says it can stand hard water). Perhaps use a ph tester or pay the money for distilled water.

But if you were thinking of using Evans read this.

[Forumadmin]

So here is the latest avenue.....having read the damming report linked in the previous post

No-Rosion outperforms all other comparable products in ASTM laboratory tests. It is the only automotive coolant additive that was originally developed for high-dollar, industrial water treatment applications. The technology in No-Rosion contains state-of-the-art organic and inorganic ingredients that function synergistically to provide unsurpassed multi-metal protection.

Importantly, No-Rosion is also the only corrosion inhibitor that, when mixed with water, becomes a fully-formulated coolant. Whereas other products are simply additives that help prevent water from causing damage, No-Rosion mixes with water to become a fully-formulated coolant that passes all ASTM tests -- including ASTM D3306. Simply put, no other product offers this level of performance.

When No-Rosion is used in a 50/50 mix, it prevents glycol in antifreeze from forming glycolic acid. It contains reserve alkalinity that continuously buffers coolant pH to prevent it from becoming corrosive. This is particularly important in older, "loose" engines. Blow-by may allow byproducts of combustion to make their way into coolant. This rapidly accelerates chemical degradation of coolant, as the pH drops to damaging acidic levels. No-Rosion's ability to buffer coolant pH protects against the acidic effects of byproducts of combustion.

Unlike other automotive coolant corrosion inhibitors, the chemical technology in No-Rosion has been extensively utilized for years in heavy duty/diesel applications. Over-the-road truck fleets logging millions of miles use No-Rosion for trusted protection. Heavy equipment with $15,000 radiators in mining operations use No-Rosion to prevent expensive downtime. It is used by the pros who know what works. And what does not.

If your vehicle has a cooling system with less than 7 lbs pressure, No-Rosion is recommended.

DIRECTIONS FOR USE: When used in a 50/50 mix, add 1 ounce of No-Rosion per quart of coolant. When used in straight water coolant, add 2 ounces of No-Rosion per quart of coolant. Because water transfers almost 50% more heat than glycol, best results will be achieved by using as little glycol in coolant as possible. For straight water coolant, reverse osmosis (RO) water is recommended. Most bottled drinking water consists of RO water. Do not use distilled water unless mixed with 50% antifreeze. Add No-Rosion once per year or 30,000 miles, whichever comes first. After 5th year, drain, clean/prime cooling system with No-Rosion Flush, and refill. Neglected cooling systems that are heavily contaminated should be flushed with No-Rosion Flush prior to treatment.

One pint (US) of No-Rosion inhibitor costs $10 US and weighs about 16 ounces. You need about 9 ounces for a Jav system. A bit cheaper.....coolant test pack costs $10US

By the way Buckwheat overheated on the way back across the Mohave just slightly and this was probably caused by the adding of antifreeze in the mountains. I say 'probably' as there may have been other causes. That was probably the only day in the life of Buckwheat when it experienced frost!

[Forumadmin]

Remember a few posts back I thought that a gain in weight was 'brilliant' on the G48 well it is not (although I did have a suspicion that it was not for rads but may be OK for blocks). Since our SA and SC have aly rads this is important.

Inspection of the aluminum test coupon indicated inhibitor deposition from the Evans product. In a cooling system, this can cause problems. Inhibitor deposition causes hot-spots to develop on metal heat exchange surfaces. This can cause granular fatigue in aluminum radiators, and result in stress cracks and failures, depending on the thickness of the metal.

from the No-Rosion report on Evans. Note we do need to be careful here as Evans may have changed formulation. Note the high erosion of solder! Also note this is not the official test, I am awaiting that.

But I am erring towards a water /glycol mix that has as little glycol in it as required for the lowest likely temp the car will suffer. This aids viscosity and cooling in summer. The garage is unlikely to go below minus -10c so 20-30% glycol. I would then think that topping up with an inhibitor every year whilst checking glycol level every year. Alternative is to swap between summer and winter coolants.

Peter has asked me to put waterless coolant in his car. Hence this research. That No-Rosion report needs a lot of response from Evans.

If you are a chemist you might glean something from page 27 of this report. This may also be useful to those wanting to find a product to suit copper rads. Various chemical companies exist if someone wants to talk to them. This is one in UK.

[Forumadmin]

Dear Mr. Clements,

we recommend a change of the coolant every 3-4 years.


Mit freundlichen Grüßen / With kind regards
Ihr Glysantin® Team / Your Glysantin® Team

[CyrilWhite]

Have you come across a product called "Arbo " a corrosion inhibitor that is readily available from Amazon .Also whilst in Tesco ,I noticed an Antifreeze product called "Prestone" ,it can be mixed with other antifreezes (of any colour) to add protection -it says .
It doesn't contain silicates or phosphates .
Such a lot of info around and getting hold of some of these products with high postage costs might be a put off ,however crankcases need looking after and I think this thread will lead towards improved protection .

[NigelHicks]

Has more research revealed more information on this confusing subject since last November?
Has a concensus been achieved on what is best for Javelins?
The corrosion performance of Glysantin G05 and G48 were compared - what about G30 and G40?
My conclusions on reading the thread and doing a bit of my own research are:
1) Glysantin (aka Comma) G05 "should work" according to the supplier, and should be replaced every 3-4 years. This seems like a less-than-ringing endorsement (the Glysantin® Team did not say that G05 was the best for Jowetts) but maybe that is the German way of putting things!
2) Other Glysantin / Comma products are available (G05/G30/G40/G48) with slightly varying properies and service lifes (3-4/5/5/3 respectively) with and without OATs
3) The ready-mixed Glysantin / Comma products give protection down to -34C, which corresponds to a 50-50 mix : much stronger than required in the UK
4) Dilute Concentrated antifreeeze/coolant with de-ionised water (not distilled water, they are different)
5) Halfords stock de-ionised water ("Battery Top-Up Water") as well as Glysantin / Comma products (but only G30/G40/G48, not G05)

On the other hand, No-Rosion is a different approach (use it with water, or a water/glycol mixture) and the Testimonials are amazingly positive and long-term (if you can believe them )

Nigel Hicks

[Forumadmin]

G05 was the one I would go for based on the responses I received. Its manufacture has subjected its products to the standards test.

Evans failed to send me a report (so I read into that their product did not pass) and in my view their product is not practical or cost effective . Nigel, I suggest you ask them yourself.

Just cut through any marleting hype and ask the manufacturer to send you the standards test report.

[Forumadmin]

I have fired off another question to Glysantin today to see if anything has changed (they have recently introduced some hybrid technology). This was prompted by Jack's Halfords offer and the fact that Halfords do not sell G05. (That is IMHO a recommendation for buying it)
I looked at Valvoline range who disclose the ASTM test results for D1384, D2570 and D4340 which are the important thing in making a choice, since the Jowett cooling system usually contains all the metals in the test. IMHO D2570 (simulated service test) is the one to compare. G05 keeps the loss/gain down below 2 mg on each metal whereas the Green manages to loose 4mg of Cast Iron. Remember it is the cast iron wet liners that have the hardest time in the cooling system.
Go5
green

The extended life product eats into 5mg copper but is good on aly and cast iron, so if you have an aly rad and not copper then this could be good.
The Asian vehicle formulation is not much good on your themostat, eating into brass and solder.
The Max life product has a problem on most metals but it does have Alugard in it to protect when mixing with other antifreeze.

From a thread on the Mustang forum, do not use a Nitrite free (such as G48) as that is not good for wet liners.

In a further post Silicate free antifreezes can cause premature failure of water pumps due to cavitation, so going for a HOAT rather than OAT coolant should be less risky.

I am not quite sure why Halfords make a big deal about being free of both, do they think it is a green issue?

[Forumadmin]

Glysantin phoned me back from Germany and say that they have repackaged G05into the Glysantin Classic.

They also said this is the same as Comma G05, so my 'advice' is still the same. I have just bought 4 x 5L from here.