antifreeze

[CyrilWhite]

Is there a favoured "off the shelf "good value anti freeze you can recomend?

[Tony Fearn]

Hello Cyril.

I think that there are different types of antifreeze, and the blue type glycol may be the one for Jowetts, but check on Google or suchlike.

I was in ASDA today and they have their 'own' antifreeze, but beware, it's 'ready for use', not concentrated.

eBay has a few sources such as:- http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/MILLERS-OILS- ... 1038wt_904, but I don't know whether it's concentrated.

Tony.

[Keith Clements]

Do not use red type!

I have a theory (not proven) that if you leave the car unused for months a chemical reaction generates glutinous substances and these block rad cores and head water ways. This may be due to antifreeze and also the mixture of metal compounds that build up in the water. Ideally we should get an analysis done of these substances.

I am amazed by the heap of bits the magnetic collector in my central heating system picks up every few months. The same is probably floating around or sitting in the bottom of the crankcases doing its chemical reacting.

It may well be worth draining the system and drying it out if you plan to keep the car off the road for a couple of months.

[CyrilWhite]

I had thought about draining ,but I had seen a posting some time back that advised against leaving dry . I was aware of some of the do's and dont's but I was just trying to pick up a"best tried and tested" of others . Having followed up Tony's links on the web other bit's of advice about at least using inhibitors during lay off . One posting was to use Furnox ,as used in my central heating system ,another tip is a Castrol inhibitor .
So I wanted to drain to clean system out and put it to bed and have the best protection . It won't freeze in the garage that's for sure .Thanks for response on this important but mundane topic .

[robert lintott]

I have always thought it is better to keep the inside of the cooling sytem wet rather than let the deposits ,scale etc become hard and less permeable . Certainly with the Jowett use of aluminium I am told the Blue antifreeze is the one to use .

If Fernox is preferred I would contact them for advice about the use in cars , especially with aluminium which is not normally used in central heating systems . They have a good website which allows questions or a direct call.

Generally there is less risk of deposits if soft water is available , depends where you live but a rain water butt is handy so long as the water is not acidic. Bob

[Keith Clements]

I am not so sure about using very soft water in cars as it could be high in acid which would accelerate bi metal corrosion. I have heard of people putting de-ionised water or distilled water into cars. The current fad is buying coolant and putting that in without water.

see http://www.evanscoolants.co.uk/no-problems.htmlor do a search on 'engine waterless coolants'.

[Forumadmin]

Trevor phoned up and said he had put antifreeze in his car... so I said 'Hope it is not red' and he said it was. So worried about this, thought I would double check...... Google first came up with this......
--------------------

For many years, since the demise of Methanol based antifreeze that was traditionally only added just before winter, blue/green or yellow Monoethylene Glycol (MEG) has been the mainstay of the coolant market. However Ford vehicles since 08/98 have been filled with coolant combining Monoethylene glycol with Organic Additive Technology (OAT) corrosion inhibitors.

There are important differences between standard MEG and MEG with OAT. It (this was later clarified to mean MEG + OAT, but then I am confused as to how when adding something actually takes something away! It transpires that the MEG also had Inorganic Inhibitors (see link below) ) does not contain silicates, nitrates, nitrites, borates, phosphates or amines so that:
· Without silicates, silicate gel or "green goo" does not form.
· By eliminating phosphates, hard water scale is reduced.
· Without silicates, phosphates, nitrates, nitrites and borates, abrasive dissolved acids are greatly reduced thereby diminishing water pump seal failures.
· Without amines and nitrites, there is no potential formation of nitrosamines.
All of this results in a considerably longer life span, whilst providing improved protection of all cooling system metals, including aluminium. Benefits over conventional silicate based coolants are:
· Improved water pump life due to reduced water pump seal wear.
· Fewer abrasive dissolved solids.
· Reduced hard water scale.
· Virtually no deterioration of heat transfer capacity during service life.
· Excellent protection against high temperature and pitting corrosion.
· No silicate gel formation during storage or use.
· Effective long-term corrosion protection for aluminium, brass, cast iron, steel, solder and copper alloys.
· Long effective service life of up to 10 years or 150,000 miles.

The two types of coolant should not be mixed. Vehicles filled with MEG will have coolant coloured blue, green or yellow. MEG with OAT additives will have coolant coloured Orange (Ford) or red.

But not satisfied I did more research. http://www.opieoils.co.uk/pdfs/tech-art ... freeze.pdf

If engine contains yellow metals [copper and brass as in older vehicles] then the long life (OAT) products based on organic technology should not be used.

which of course the Jowett does at it has copper and brass.

but also you need to read the label and make sure it does not contain Organic Inhibitors.

The manufacturer can dye the product any colour they want. The colour is no guide to the actual type of antifreeze type and the label should be read before use.

And if you do not believe them then read this from the Rolls Royce club.
http://rrtechnical.info/miscellaneous/c ... arning.pdf

and yet more from http://www.pedrosgarage.com/Site_5/Cool ... reeze.html not perhaps an authority but some useful knowledge

HOAT are hybrid coolants that use both silicate and organic acid corrosion inhibitors, generally recommended for engines that have iron-blocks and aluminum heads.

on this point I have emailed some HOAT manufacturers to see if it is OK for yellow metals.

and this

On a final note, regarding the “mixing of non Porsche coolant with Porsche coolant will turn to gel” issue, here’s the scoop.


Porsche was one of the first manufacturers to use an all aluminum engine and they were pioneers in the development of the Organic Additive Technology (OAT) for antifreeze. In those days the concentration of silicates, borates and phosphates (among others) was so high in the commercially available IAT coolants, that when mixed with OAT this would cause the additives to precipitate out of solution and would clog many of the fine cooling vanes in the radiators and engine. This precipitate had the consistency of slush.


Bottom line: Don’t mix different types of antifreeze.

which is exactly what I saw in Nigel Hick's engine

so more research from http://donsnotes.com/home_garden/auto/antifreeze.html

European car makers like VW specify coolant additives lacking in phosphates and including borates and low silicates (such as VW's G11 (blue)) because their water is harder and it reacts with phosphates to create aluminum phosphate or calcium and magnesium deposits.
See more on problems with phosphates at autorepair.about.com
The Japanese disagree and specify mixtures high in phosphates and low in borates and silicates because they fear lack of maintenance will cause borate corrosion.
Tap water in North America also contains calcium, but isn't as hard as European tap water so phosphates are considered okay to use here.

and

OAT is recommended in engines with aluminum components (heads or radiators) because Borates can be bad for them.

and

One forum said Peak Global LifeTime is OK for Subaru another said it contains silicates which can degrade an aluminum radiator

BORATES are NOT used by Japanese OEMs due to aggression to aluminum engine components.
Concerns with phosphate containing products are the potential for solids dropout when mixed with hard water.
Another problem was clogged radiators from antifreeze mixtures incompatible with aluminum.

There is currently a debate as to whether or not Dex-Cool protects lead solder in copper/brass radiators and heater cores. If you have to change a radiator or heater core, use aluminum.

Green antifreeze contains silicates, phosphates and / or borates as corrosion inhibitors to keep the solution alkaline. As long as the solution remains alkaline, corrosion is controlled and the system is protected.

So are you any the wiser? Yes, but still confused as to what to put in.

perhaps this
http://www.valvoline.com/pdf/zerex_g05.pdf
not available in UK but this is
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Comma-XHD5L-Xst ... B0048778U6

However, further research on the OEM says this may be better than G05
http://www.glysantin.de/15-1-Product-Ov ... ml?pid=g48

But now enter Si-OAT-engine coolants into the fray which are new. Would they be more suitable?

[Forumadmin]

Further to my last post, I met Langy from the MIG welding forum this morning and he just so happened to ask what antifreeze I used. So ensued the story; but he did contribute that many years ago he used to put a lump of copper in the rad to act as a sacrificial anode to save the aluminium in the rad and block. So any comment from our chemists?

Still no news from the inhibitor manufacturers!

[Jack]

Further to my last post, I met Langy from the MIG welding forum this morning and he just so happened to ask what antifreeze I used. So ensued the story; but he did contribute that many years ago he used to put a lump of copper in the rad to act as a sacrificial anode to save the aluminium in the rad and block. So any comment from our chemists?

Still no news from the inhibitor manufacturers!

Will copper act as a sacrificial anode to aluminium? I thought copper was less reactive than aluminium, have I got that wrong? I don't know the chemistry in detail, but I'd have expected anything designed to be sacrificial to be more reactive. Have I got the reactivity wrong? Does it not work like that? A cheap lump of metal it probably preferential to corrosion in the block or rad, but would need to be bolted on somewhere wouldn't it?

[Forumadmin]

The trail now goes towards waterless coolants and here are some claims. http://www.evanscoolant.co.uk/acatalog/Learn-More.html
This is encouraging...but remember this is just propylene glycol with some additives. Nothing magic, just no water!

Q. Which Evans Waterless Coolant is correct for my car?
A. Vintage Cool 180° is specially formulated for increased yellow metals and the more porous cast metal parts found in Vintage engines.

But at £140 to prep and fill the car is it worth it? I am not convinced the additives are that different or that all galvanic action is eliminated. Why else would you have different preparations for different combinations of aluminium, iron or yellow metal systems?
If you have a leaking system then you could be pouring money away!

Interesting that an expansion tank will reduce reintroduction of oxygen into the system. Perhaps one reason to put boiled water into system or sealed distilled water. Note that you can only introduce 3% of water into the waterless coolant before it starts to become ineffective. Thus drying out the heater and all the other parts has to be thorough. Perhaps the Prep fluid is good at this, but make sure it goes through the heater.

[Forumadmin]

There is a lot of copper in the Jowett system if you have the old style head gaskets so putting copper in a Jowett system is probably not beneficial. Chemists or Google please respond to Jack's question! But do the new copper-less head gaskets increase corrosion?

More reading of the Evans site reveals that their High Performance and Race mixes have ethylene glycol in them. So not much different to normal antifreeze. This does not apply to the Vintage mixture (NPG) which is purple and propylene glycol.
http://www.evanscooling.com/assets/High ... ns-WEB.pdf for more facts on rad core specs!

Interesting...

If the vehicle is to be stored for a long period of time fill the radiator to the top with Evans Waterless Coolant ONLY and install the
radiator cap. On a zero pressure system also seal the overflow hose. This will keep air and moisture from entering the cooling system,
protecting the system from corrosion during storage

Perhaps this is why storage over the winter increases corrosion? So every month suggest running engine up to temp and higher, if possible, to drive out that air.
From the UK distributors

Non-Toxic Secondary Refrigerant Antifreeze. Based on Propylene Glycol, blended with BS6580 proven Corrosion, Scale and Biological inhibitors.

BS6580 may be OAT so do not use it unless you know it is IAT.
http://www.da7c.co.uk/technical_torque_ ... freeze.htm
References a supplier for propylene but this may not have IAT.

[Forumadmin]

Amsoil

This is how to sell your product. Give very informative tech data sheet. A brilliant graph. A brilliant set of tests on Aluminium, Steel and Copper and Solder!
But at £64 for 3.7 litres Now you may just get away with one bottle (3.3 qrt) as the Jav is 9.1 litre or 9.6 quart capacity and this should give protection down to about -18 C or 0 F

[Forumadmin]

Have a good look at this I know it is not an independent test (or perhaps it is) but it does show the vast difference between corrosion and weight loss between water and coolants with additives. It also shows the heat transfer improvements.

From here some more debate on IAT, OAT and HOAT. What is becoming clearer is that Silicates are probably needed in a Jowett engine as OATs alone may not offer protection of the water pump against cavitation. But can some OAT additives be useful and prevent water pump seal degradation? That is still an outstanding question unless you fully believe the Amsoil marketing.

Silicates plate-out quickly on metal engine parts; thus the silicates in a coolant solution can drop to less than 20 percent of the starting level in less than 10,000 miles. Another problem with silicates is that, under certain conditions, they can drop out of the solution and form minute deposits.

If this occurs between the shaft and seal of your water pump, the resulting abrasion will eventually cause a leak. In a cooling system that turns off coolant flow to the heater core when the heater is not in use, silicates can form a gummy deposit that, over the course of a summer season, might clog the core tubes.

So why even use silicates? Because they’re really good at what they do, especially in iron block/aluminum head engines. That’s why some manufacturers still specify using coolants with silicate corrosion inhibitors

The newer OAT coolants work differently than the older silicate, ethylene glycol, IAT coolants (the green stuff). Aluminum and ferrous metals form a surface-layer of corrosion in the presence of moisture, even the little bit of moisture in the air. OAT coolants anneal this metal-oxide layer into a thin surface coating that protects against further corrosion. Inherent with their design, the OAT coolants last longer than the old green-stuff IAT coolants. Regardless, with either type of inhibitor, there must be enough in the coolant solution to occasionally re-establish the barrier as needed.

It took almost 20 years of OAT development to make a coolant that would effectively protect against corrosion without using silicates at all.

As a bridge between OAT and IAT there are the hybrid coolants (HOAT) that use both silicate and organic acid corrosion inhibitors.

In a 300-hour test of OAT coolant in a Ford engine designed for HOAT coolant, the water pump impellor and backing plate were seriously damaged by cavitation corrosion.

[Forumadmin]

Yes it will, many vintage cars are using Evans.
Jay Leno's garage and Beaulieu Motor museum all use Evans.

[Forumadmin]

G05
Glysantin G 05 was developed to protect car, truck and bus engines
of both ferrous and aluminium construction against corrosion and
frost damage. It contains a blend of inhibitors designed to give a high
degree of corrosion protection to engine components such as radiators,
cylinder blocks/heads and water pumps. Due to its nitrite content
this product is especially recommended for the use in heavy duty
engines.
Simulated Service Test ASTM D 2570
typical
Metals and alloys weight loss spec. limit
(mg/coupon) (mg/coupon)
Copper 2.1 20
Solder 1.9 60
Brass 1.2 20
Steel - 1.0 *) 20
Cast iron - 1.1 *) 20
Aluminium 1.8 60
*) remark: negative values mean increase of weight.

G48
Glysantin G 48 was developed to protect car, truck and bus engines
of both ferrous and aluminium construction against corrosion and
frost damage. It contains a blend of inhibitors designed to give a high
degree of corrosion protection to engine components such as radiators,
cylinder blocks/heads and water pumps.
Simulated Service Test ASTM D 2570
typical
Metals and alloys weight loss spec. limit
(mg/coupon) (mg/coupon)
Copper 8.8 20
Solder 0.0 60
Brass 10.7 20
Steel 0.1 20
Cast iron - 1.1 *) 20
Aluminium - 1.2 *) 60
*) remark: negative values mean increase of weight

The copper and brass depletion of G48 is not good but the aluminium protection is brilliant.
The depletion on G05 is fairly even and might be the better choice if you have a copper rad or are worried about the brass in the water pump.
http://www.geomatique-liege.be/MGJP/...santin_G48.pdf
http://www.geomatique-liege.be/MGJP/...santin_G05.pdf