Daily driver

[David Kemp]

I am thinking of buying a Jowett javelin as a daily driver. I do 200<300 klm's per week.
Apart from not having air con, which I love in Brisbane QLD.
Is a Javelin a capable daily driver? Or am I expecting too much of a sixty year old car?
Does anyone drive a Javelin daily? Are they all now Sunday chariots?

[Leo Bolter]

Hello David.
From a NZ perspective . . .
All I can contribute is that our son Carl used a restored Javelin for almost "daily driving" when he was at University and then after graduating drove it around Wellinton and also Auckland for several years. This included several journeys to and from our home in Palmerston North. It's been retired for a rest in a barn in recent years . . . until he's able to do all/most of the things a new family man needs to do! But, we did get it out of storage for his family to attend a JCC of NZ Rally that was held locally 3 years ago . . . . there was very little to be done to get it on the road.

There was no trouble keeping up with normal traffic around town and at the legal highway speeds.

When it was being constantly used we had almost no trouble . . . a genuine (and old!) Jowett piston broke (see http://jowett.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f ... oke#p12709) which entailed a tow for about 40 miles to Palm Nth, the end of the journey anyway. The pistons were all replaced with Mitsubishi Lancer ones. I also fitted VW rims and radial tyres . . . and what a huge improvement that was!

We have never had cooling problems, but several people around the world have . . . . That may be a problem in "warmer" Aussie. A oil cooler may be imperative also.

I hope this is some help in making a decision . . . .

jav_rh_rear.jpg

Cheers.
Leo.

[Keith Andrews]

I have been driving a 1969 camaro as a daily and tow vechicle for the last 32 yrs
I also drove my Bradford for several yrs daily.
Jowetts/ Javlins like Chevs had a reputation in their day of being good solid reliable cars.
BUT...these where factory assembled and regularly serviced vechicles.
The 'secret' to running old cars as a daily work, shopping , pic up the kids is to rebuild them, body and drive train as they did in the factory.....Then keep in mind modern bearings rubbers paint etc are far superior to 40 or 70 yrs ago.
One of our members in Auckland here has driven her Javelin daily , work shopping etc for as long as I have known her.

Personally these modern computer controled electric windows arm chairs on wheels are not as 'green' as they make out, expensive to maintain, have far more go wrong, and when it does far more expensive and complex to fix.

Now we come to the finanual viabity of driving an old car...
I will use the Camaro as a the example.
Paid top dollar back in '80 12000
Did a big rebuild in 84, anything that could wear got replaced, be it a window roller or the engine or a brake slave cycinder
Then have done 3 body only rebuilds, chop a few bubbles out re paint 3 and due for another.
Replaced brake shoes pads, tie rod ends normal stuff knocking up around 200,000 miles
In total not including insurance registration (these are cheaper than normal cars 1/4 the value) batteries, tyres fuel oil...spent in 32 yrs about 96,000 dollars..including intial purchase.
Insurance independant valuation is 65K reality would sell for 45 to 55 K lets say 46K
That is a balance of 50K over 32 yrs...rebuilds , depreciation etc etc
Or put another way about 1500 per yr.
Then u say cost of fuel for an American gas guzzling muscle car...
Well the engine is designed for modern fuels...open road it runs around the 33/34 mpg and around town about 28 mpg
A modern V6 3.8 Holden Calais with all its ECU, injection pollution BS has a larger carbon thumb print and if granny foot it will pull about 26 mpg

[Jack]

Based on the mileage per week, you are proposing to do approx 15,000kms a year.

For that kind of mileage, I would use a more modern car than a Javelin. It is possible, and no doubt many have done it (and continue to do it) but it is likely to incur more maintenance than a modern car, will be less economical than a modern car, and if I was driving in the Australian sunshine I would want air conditioning just for comfort to spend that amount of time in a car each week.

The Javelin is likely to be as reliable as any other classic car - if you drive that kind of mileage in any vehicle more than 20 years old, you are going to need to look after it, and there are going to be some bumps in the road occasionally if you are buying an unknown car to do it - after a while no doubt you will get it into shape where it can do the mileage you require, but it certainly isn't the most reliable way of doing it. Before relying on it as your only mode of transport I'd definitely spend a while using the car less regularly, and then once proven you can increase the mileage and move on the backup vehicle.

The other consideration is what you need to do the mileage for - if you are driving those distances for business then being on time at meetings etc might tip the balance, if you are driving a lot socially and being a little later than planned or having to change things around last minute isn't a big issue then it is more sensible. Leo's example of a student that needs a set of wheels is sensible - not much consequence if a student is late getting home or to a party somewhere because of a minor problem along the way, and they probably have the time to do the little tweaks required from wear and tear as and when.

Jack.

[Forumadmin]

In the UK having a classic car can make financial sense as there is no Road Tax. A similar situation exists in some states in Aus, but in some there are restrictions on use.
Garage bills are also probably less if you have a friend or you can maintain yourself.

As to whether a Javelin is the choice of a classic car for such a venture depends on many things.

The Javelin is comfortable and spacious and quite suitable for the executive business traveller. It will be a talking point at meetings.

I drove a Javelin up the east coast of Aus and cabin temperature was not a problem with the Javelin's fresh air ventilation system. Overheating was only a problem on a very, very long hill on a very hot day,but yes an open cored rad and an oil cooler are probably necessary. On that journey we also had torrential rain and there were no problems with wet electrics, but it is worth making sure modern leads and cap are fitted. Dust might also be a problem in some areas, so make sure the filter is clean, or fit disposable pancake filters as I have done. Flies might be a problem so make sure the washer bottle and wipers work!

Reliability depends on how the car is prepared and looked after. Having driven Javelins and Jupiters on long hard rallies many times you learn what needs close attention.
300 kilometers a week is say 10 x 30 k journeys. That is hardly going to strain the car, it will hardly warm up! I would have no problem doing 500km every day on easy roads. But, and this is a big but, you will need to 'service' the car every month, and/or get into the habit of checking a few things each time you take it out.

Every day I check all fluid levels, brake, engine , rad, gearbox. Every week check wheels for cracks and wheel nuts for torque. Every month grease and check diff oil. Listen for brake shoe wear and squeaks, gearbox noises, tappet noise, big end thump. Sniff the air for rubber, anti-freeze or hot oil smells. That way you catch it before it goes and can nurse the car home. Get into the habit of checking amps, water and oil temp when driving (every 5 minutes). If driving at night, check operation of all electrics and fit an alternator. Worth carrying a battery booster pack and keeping an eye on the battery condition, but daily driving should present no problem. You might relax some of this routine as you gain confidence in the car, but do not relax too much as it is then that things will go wrong.

A Javelin is not computer assisted, so you need to use your senses and brain to drive one reliably.

[Keith Andrews]

I dont think with a classic as a daily driver is so much the choice of the model, but more knowing exactly how well it was restored...by you or who ever.

As to economy compared to modern cars....there is no reason why classics are as good as if not better...IF retued from British crap 60/70 octane fuels to our modern composition fuels.
The big difference betwen the classic and modern is injection which covers a very wide rpm bandwidth and carb which has a narrow rpm bandwidth efficiency....modern cars use a very wide band width, these old cars dont, espec british.

Bottom line, If you jump into a daily driver..or any car for that matter...at any time, and dont have 100% confindence (other than checking oil /water and tyre pressures) it will at that piont in time or any piont, take u without a missed beat on a 2000 miles + road trip.....it is not a daily driver.

[David Kemp]

Thanks everyone for your replies, I think all your comments agreed with my sentiment, that is either buy one from a reliable club member with known history, or rebuild a wreck with reliability in mind. Leo how did you convert your Javelin to VW rims, as I want a modern tyre on the Javelin, those old crossply tyres were not adequate in 1950, in my opinion! Thanks to the gentleman with the Camaro, the other classic I am thinking of is a Camaro/Mustang/corvette. I know this may seem a chalk & cheese comparison, but I love all machinery, & when looking for a practical classic, the Javelin fills the criteria for the fifties, ie it was a modern car in 1950, not a prewar hangover, it has style, a good club network & spares still exist.
The Camaro has style, & being general motors I know how to work on one. There are plenty now around, but many have been hacked about badly....hmmm jury still out on what to do. Next step maybe start the test drives. Note Wife hates all cars over ten years old.

[Keith Andrews]

the other classic I am thinking of is a Camaro/Mustang/corvette. I know this may seem a chalk & cheese comparison, but I love all machinery,

No it is not chalk and cheese as most may think...Both are drivers cars, very comfortable...well sort of, the 1st generation Camaro 67 to 69 the front seat ..only way to put it, suck... they are not a lounge on wheels, and both handle very well.
As to the chev /ford thing...lets put that aside...Mustang construction is similar to the 60s/70s falcon, cortina..mc pherson struts and along with that the same structual rust issues....Mustang parts are not quite as readly avalible as the Camaro or Corvette, and a little, over all more expensive.
The Camaro is basically a HQ holden built stronger with different badges...bearings, stud axles, discs, door locks, headlight and much more are all interchangeable with the 1st and 2nd gen camaros and stingrays.
The camaro is a more practical car than a corvette...one can fit a tent and camping stuff in a camaro for a week away, cant do that with a corvette, have enough issue with a couple sets of golf clubs.

The only 2 cars that would be at the top of my list for classic daily drivers, considering avalibity and cost of parts , reliabilty, handling, easy maintance etc...a Javelin or a 1st Gen camaro with better front seats..I have 1988 subaru leone/omega seats on the orginal camaro runners.

[Leo Bolter]

David.
You asked

Leo how did you convert your Javelin to VW rims, as I want a modern tyre on the Javelin . . . ."

I don’t remember the details, but the making would probably have gone something like this:

I purchased 6 or 7 VW wheels and spun them so as to be able to choose the ones with the straightest rims.
I would have gas cut the VW rims from their centres near to the rims and ground away any remnants of the centre material left behind.
I’m pretty certain that the Jowett rims were “un-riveted” from their wheel centres.
The inside of the VW rims are smaller than the Jowett ones so the Jowett centres would probably have been mounted on a hub and gas cut to be slightly over that dimension.
Having access to a large lathe, the rough gas cut edges would have been machined so they were a slight press it into the VW rims.
At this stage I believe I would have fitted the pressed together wheels to the front of the car to check steering ball joint clearances (when the ball joints were tilted to their extremes).
There must have been a “compromise” to the positioning of these two components made, as in the final instance a 1/4” spacer disk was required on the studs between the front hub (only) and the wheel.
When correctly positioned and eventually spun up to check that they were true, I tack welded then stitch welded the centre to the rim with a MIG welder.
The now welded wheels were "normalised" in a furnace.
Powder coating finished them off.

NOTE 1: The overall diameter of the new wheel and tyre is slightly less than the original set-up, so the gearing is slightly lower.
NOTE 2: The clearance when fitting/removing the new wheel and tyre from the rear axle should be checked . . . . it can me a bit marginal and so a struggle!
NOTE 3: This was done way back when suitable radial tyres were not available for 16” rims . . . . I believe that these days that suitable ones are able to be purchased.

[David Kemp]

Thanks Leo for your prompt reply. Do you know how Peter Furness in Auckland is getting on regards having Mag wheels for his Jupiter? Last I heard he was still waiting for final costing, this may be the tyre upgrade answer.

[Keith Andrews]

If u look very close here
http://www.jowettnz.net/Javelins.html
most of the javelins are running radial tyres, on stock rims simply because cross plys are now more expensive than the wide tyres I have on the camaro...and the radials about 1/2 the price maybe less than 1/2 now... I have radials on stock bradford rims

[Andrew Henshall]

Hi David,

I actually posted a long reply last week but it was lost during the IT glitch on the Forum.

I recommended that you contact a couple of the members of the Jowett Car Club in the Brisbane area for help in answering your question: President Brian Holmes (brian.holmes51@bigpond.com) who lives in Brisbane, and/or Vice-President and Queensland State Representative Doug Anderson (jupiedoug@yahoo.com.au). They will be able to answer your question from a postition of vast experience with Jowetts specific to your region.

There is no reason why a Javelin in good condition could not be used as a daily driver, provided you can do without aircon. We have solved all the reliability issues that were major problems in the 50s & 60s in Australia (and elsewhere); crankshaft breakages, headgasket failures, and gearbox failures are a thing of the past. The cars are now very reliable provided that the engine/gearbox has been suitably modified, they are well maintained, and you run a suitable modern spin-on oil filter and modern lubricants. Many of our members do long mileages in their Jowetts, including interstate trips to our National rallies. The last rally was held in Esperance WA, and this year's is to be held on the Fleurieu Peninsula SA. Several of our members also use their Jupiters regularly in road & track competion, and as you no doubt know, the Javelin & Jupiter share the same basic engine.

You might consider joining the JCCA (the annual membership fee is very low) as we not only provide excellent social events, and offer technical support, but we also have a large stock of Javelin spares available for purchase by members at very reasonable costs. There is also a fully restored 1951 Javelin advertised in our current national newsletter in Sydney if you are interested.

Best regards,

Andrew Henshall
Victorian State Representative
Jowett Car Club of Australia Inc

[David Kemp]

Regards putting radials on Bradfords & Javelins, the original rims were very narrow, my friends motorcycles had wider rims than my Bradford! what size radial are you putting on to the Bradord rim? Or are you using Bradford centres & modern wider rims? Also does it make any difference(improvement) to Bradford handling & ride?

[Keith Andrews]

On bradford rims 175x80 x16...with tubes
A note here, radial tyres are of a very different constuction and properties. There was many issues in the late 60s early 70s of older cars like minis designed for stifferwall cross plys running radials, which is sorted by icreased tyre pressure up in the 40/45 lbs range

[Forumadmin]

I agree with Keith that tyre pressure needs to be increased, particularly if using a wider tyre than the rim was originally designed for. I use tubes anyway as well as the radial case as the I am not convinced original rims were meant for tubeless tyres. Now I use more modern rims which are wider on either Jowett centres or ones specially made (SAAB 90 or custom).

One reason is that with more rubber contact patch hard braking can turn the tyre on the rim. unless the increased pressure creates a better grip on the bead. The radial wall was designed for more give than a crossply and was generally run at lower pressure for the same loading. I do not think this seems to apply to the Jupiter.