Javelin brakes

[Keith Andrews]

Its an american Chevy V8 'sports car' from the late '60s muscle car era

I have hit (timed) 158 mph, its a high 13s 1/4 mile, handles like a go kart, and around town about 22 mph...and like the Bradford, Also use it as a daily driver and tow vechile (see avator next to my name on the left)..

[Forumadmin]

Well I have to reply to that. I have done 15 years racing and rallying with Silicone on Alpine stages that would test any set of brakes and stages in Morocco that saw other cars boiling their brakes.
After the trouble with failed wheel and master cylinders that I had with Glycol based fluids, I will never use Glycol in my Jowetts.

[Keith Clements]

JCC LTD would not recommend anything; it is totally at the discretion of the member what they put in their car. If anything, the liability would be on the seller or manufacturer of the fluid.
Since many parts on the car are in some way modified, and in every case with a better and safer design. insurance should not be a problem. If you are worried, declare it to the insurance company.
I will say it again. Old cars that are left for long periods with glycol in the braking system are more likely to have failing brakes through leaking or sticking cylinders. The insurance company could probably determine that you have not renewed brake fluid every 24 months as stated on the can! So where are you then with cover?
My personal experience, and take this advice totally at your own risk, is to use Silicone. I am not the world's expert; use the internet to make your own mind up. There is no such thing as an expert, only informed opinion. You may have to read and learn about many chemical and physical subjects, take advice from many learned sources, make your own decisions on the quailty of those sources and weigh up the balance of opinion and risk across many criteria. I have done that and you know my decision. I have put my life on the line with that decision many, many times.

[Keith Andrews]

Both Mineral and silcone brake fluids are good products IF USED and MAINTAINED CORRECTLY
Silicone is for high end towing (transporting a 65 ton army tank), heavy vechiles, and higher end racing application.
Silicone has a wide temp range use and works under exterme low temps (Artic) It also has a far higher compression rating, thu under normal and mid range racing appilcations one will not notice any difference.
Silicone like mineral based requires regular changing every 2 yrs.

Mineral/glycol Will do any normal usage and up to mid range racing and towing caravans etc. Mineral based, because of the gycol content absorbs miosture, this is not a problem if the system
is in good order..no leaks
Containers are kept sealed
Caps kept on master cylinders while breeding
Dont EVER reuse fluid.
If a leak occurs, replace ALL the fliud.

If a vechicle is not reguarly serviced regardless of the type, seals and other problems can occur with both...

A race car, after a meet, not only has engine serviced (often even between races) but brake cooling systems all stripped and checked before the next meet.

A vechile if stored for more than 6 months, regardless of fluid type should have the brakes checked....It issue is not what fluid is used but rather seals sticking, distorting over time.,,, A vechile stored should have regular engine starts, work the brakes and roll the wheels anyway...If u have crossplys put the vechile on blocks, otherwise they will get flat spots (radials dont)

Both Keith and Pat are correct....without regular maintance as per factory manuals and reconmendations of the fluid manufacture, and something goes wrong...insurance can go out the window...u dont want to hit a Lamborgini

OK the above is strickly by the book..
There is a huge safety margin built into both products...A brake system in top order regardless of the type of fluid will last well beyond the 2 yr margin..Im sure if many where to admitt have taken out to well over 5 yrs without problems for decades. I dont reconmend the practice.

Run which ever you choose...it is the correct maintaince that is the issue.
Personally
In the camaro (400hp 3600lbs and tow upto 1 1/2 tons tare), and all our other cars I run mineral based.
If I was to race NASCAR or heavy V8s speeds up around 150mph, endurance racing (200 miles plus)or running around the Artic circle I would be using silicone....

[Keith Andrews]

Keith C s luck?...no such thing as luck...the effort put in determines the action. lol
Brakes do not fail due to fluid choice in normal cars like his yours and mine...
They fail because maintenance is not carried out or not carried out correctly.
Both systems are good as each other.

As to choice...well its like the Ford /chev Intel/AMD
Sure there are slight differences, but not what we would notice.
And like the above, silicone / mineral dont mix yet they both work.

Discussions like this are good...
I learn a lot at the same time.
And no doubt those who read such debates get to see understand the different points of view then can make their own balanced choice...with a few tips along the way.

[Keith Clements]

My issue with glycol is that even if you do change the fluid every two years (which, by the way, I did used to do) I found that after leaving a car unused for six months caused the wheel cylinders to rust. This was because they were coated in a thin film of glycol that absorbs moisture. Also the boundary where the seal finished also oxidised, or sulphated, the aluminium of the cylinder. Of course, if you use the brakes, this boundary moves and so polishes off any oxidant/sulphate. After such a period of non use the brakes would invariably stick on, or worse, leak where the oxidation was bad.

I have had no such problems with silicone. In my research I have not seen anywhere that silicone fluid should be changed regularly. Fluid that I have taken out when overhauling the system prior to a major rally has always been clean, unlike when using Glycol.

Simply changing fluid I do not think is good enough. You should make sure that all cylinders, including the master cylinder, are cleaned. Also take off and clean out the reservoir that can harbour a host of nasties. Fit a fluid level warning sender into it.

Check the brake springs, wheel bearing seals (or use Admax b3 grease) and the drums.

We seem to have disagrement on the relative compressability of both fluids. Can anyone point to a quantiative analysis of them please? I doubt any difference would be noticeable; but if we have the numbers we can probably work it out! Put it this way, my Jupiter and Javelin brakes seem to be better than most.

Regarding 'if Silicone was the best then manufacturers would be using it'. Possibly not, as it costs twice as much and they would not have so much service revenue. Anyway, for a much used car Glycol is adequate. Also modern systems may well not be suited to Silicone.

[PAUL BEAUMONT]

Hey guys, this is getting a bit heated isn't it? Maybe we should all back track a bit to a few basics. Brakes are essential to a motor car of any vintage (and to good health) I personally am not a great fan of fiddling around with original specifications unless there is good reason to do so, but here surely the point needs to be that Brakes, INCLUDING FLUID need maintaining like the rest of the vehicle. More than that, sudden changes in performance, sudden one sided pulling, sudden loss of fluid etc NEED INVESTIGATING IMMEDIATELY. It is worth remembering that if the vehicle is used regularly changes can occur very slowly and imperceptably. KEEP AWAKE and if you feel that your brake performance has deteriorated then INVESTIGATE AT ONCE. For the vehicles that we run and the use that we put them to is there a need for long life fluid?. Surely it is better to spend a bit less a bit more often. I would prefer to spend time and money being sure that everything is working rather than trusting what it says on the tin!
Then again, I run a Bradford which may have crude caps (Mr Wills) and buckled rims with stretching studs, but does have brakes operated by steel rods! BRING BACK GIRLING MECHANICALS say I!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[paul wilks]

I think I have inadvertently opened up a can of worms by asking what, in all honesty, I thought was a straight forward question about my braking system.

I think on reflection I will be renewing with silicone and watching what happens. If 'things happen' which shouldn't then I will probably have no other option than to renew all brake seals and hoses and revert to Dot3/4. Please pray for me that that doesn't happen!

In the longer term perhaps I should sell the Javelin and buy a Bradford(?)


Paul

[Keith Andrews]

Hey guys, this is getting a bit heated isn't it?

I think I have inadvertently opened up a can of worms by asking what,

Nope....Its a balanced discussion, and everyone is making good pionts and arguements that have substance

Brake failure.....u die its worth a discussion.

Then again, I run a Bradford which may have crude caps (Mr Wills) and buckled rims with stretching studs, but does have brakes operated by steel rods! BRING BACK GIRLING MECHANICALS say I!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Fix the buckled wheels, rebuild the steering box and use 90 oil, no kingpin play or play in joints, and u will be amazed how well a Bradford drives...the old concept "a bradford wanders down the road" is rubbish.
And the mechanical brakes work as well if not better than most modern cars...just have to press a little harder under unexpected braking.

In the longer term perhaps I should sell the Javelin and buy a Bradford(?)

Ahhh theres a man coming to his senses