21st Century Jowett

noggin not available yet!

Come to a Technical Meeting and not only natter but get your Jowett going better.
Jowett Technical Weekend
Post Reply
Jack
Posts: 1113
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:49 am
Location: Herts

21st Century Jowett

Post by Jack »

An interesting question while sitting on the M25 in traffic, again, as I look at the other cars around me. And I thought – “If Jowett were still running, what cars would they be making right now?”

So it seems they moved in their latest years to the Javelin and Jupiter, so logic suggests they’d be producing at least a saloon and a roadster, perhaps a few other types cars (though British car manufacture has become a specialist area with companies focusing on a relatively narrow range)

Looking around me I saw a few cars that fitted the bill, and started with the Javelin. To try and find a 21st Century Javelin I’d expect something that handled well, could seat 5 people comfortably, with a sensible sized engine and styling that ignored what others had done before. Tough ask. Still, it can be more expensive than some of the other cars available, because the Javelin was, so price isn’t a big problem.

Candidate one: BMW 5 Series. It handles well, rear wheel drive, comfortable seating for 5, lots of technology that wasn’t fitted to other cars at the time of launch, but perhaps more luxurious against other more affordable cars than the Javelin was against its competition in the 50s. The looks are out though - it looks like every other luxury saloon on the market.

Image

Candidate two: Subaru Legacy/Impreza. The horizontally opposed engine fits with Jowett engine philosophy, and the reliability and comfort is fairly obvious. But 4 wheel drive? I wonder whether Jowett would have gone this way with their cars – they were keen on cars that could handle everything that a Yorkshire winter could throw at them, so perhaps they’d have gone this route to get the handling and cornering ability. Again they look very ordinary, and are easily mistaken for a Mondeo or other similar saloons.

Image

Candidate three: Chrysler PT Cruiser. The looks kind of fit – a bit of hotrod about it, the big front grille, but front wheel drive and questionable engineering quality perhaps isn’t quite up to what Jowett would have achieved, though perhaps the build quality does reflect the kind of problems Jowett had with gearboxes etc.

Image

Thoughts? What else would Jowett have developed? Is there a modern equivalent for the Jupiter (an MX5 or Saab 93 perhaps?) or the Bradford and others?

It seems to me that they’d probably have tried to achieve Subaru engineering quality with the Chrysler’s unique looks, and perhaps with BMW finish, and probably would produce a car that is well above average in cost as a result – it would sell in limited numbers, but would be a distinctive, different car to see on the roads, and not beyond the reach of most affluent families but perhaps a luxury choice for most.

If Jowett were building cars now, what engine would be in them? What size would it be? Nearest comparable engine on the market today?

Jack.
Forumadmin
Site Admin
Posts: 20648
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:18 pm
Your interest in the forum: Not a lot!
Given Name: Forum

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by Forumadmin »

Get back to your decorating !

But the first route would be to follow the independent company such as TVR or Morgan, the second the continuation of the marque within a conglomerate such as Jaguar, the third as a leader in an amalgamation such as VAG.

The development of any feature would depend on how the design and technology were adopted. The styling might have endured via a badge or grille but unlikely to have survived 50 years unless it was resurrected. Mechanicals may have survived and morphed but only if they survived cost reduction and modern tooling requirements. The only part that might have survived in my opinion would have been the torsion bar suspension. The engine and gearbox had too many design issues and were overtaken by VW and Porsche and later Subaru.

It might be worth conjecture over each decade for each of the three routes. Perhaps the government might have supported Jowett to rival BMC to form a second motoring conglomerate in the 1960s. Perhaps that might have bought out Porsche or Subaru in the 1980s. Perhaps in the 2000s it would have taken over Tata and have millions of Jowetts roaming India.
Jack
Posts: 1113
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:49 am
Location: Herts

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by Jack »

Forumadmin wrote:Get back to your decorating !

But the first route would be to follow the independent company such as TVR or Morgan, the second the continuation of the marque within a conglomerate such as Jaguar, the third as a leader in an amalgamation such as VAG.

The development of any feature would depend on how the design and technology were adopted. The styling might have endured via a badge or grille but unlikely to have survived 50 years unless it was resurrected. Mechanicals may have survived and morphed but only if they survived cost reduction and modern tooling requirements. The only part that might have survived in my opinion would have been the torsion bar suspension. The engine and gearbox had too many design issues and were overtaken by VW and Porsche and later Subaru.

It might be worth conjecture over each decade for each of the three routes. Perhaps the government might have supported Jowett to rival BMC to form a second motoring conglomerate in the 1960s. Perhaps that might have bought out Porsche or Subaru in the 1980s. Perhaps in the 2000s it would have taken over Tata and have millions of Jowetts roaming India.
Skirting board is now painted, walls ready to paper, just a bit of sanding and glossing to do and the lining paper can go up.

Interesting thoughts on where they'd end up - I suppose if they'd continued then they could have joined up with the British manufacturing groups (though perhaps with a better work ethic!) or an international group. We'd hope they'd get the best of both worlds in the way that Jag has - the support etc from a global company but the independence to do new things with design and quality.

By survive, you mean in its original form? I guess the torsion bar suspension could have stayed, I'd have expected the engine design to evolve from original form into something like the Subaru engines of the 90s - it doesn't seem a massive leap to go from what Jowett did to the Subaru design, and though it would need investment, it isn't an unachievable design, not massively economical, but solid enough and powerful enough for most conditions.

But the challenge was to find a car on the road today that could have been what came from Jowett if they still operated now, and why. So feel free to work on that one tomorrow :) I don't see a car that is a natural successor, that they would have designed and manufactured because it is a natural progression - any modern car seems to require a level of evolution beyond what we could try and predict over 60 years.

Jack.
Keith Andrews
Posts: 941
Joined: Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:11 am
Location: New Zealand
Contact:

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by Keith Andrews »

I think you are right about the Chrysler lines...Bit different but along those lines for the Javelin..keeping the distintive grill.
The Bradford along the lines of the Hiace ..practical ....
And the jupiter a cross between the AC cobra and morgan

And the current retro designs coming out of the US..chalanger stang camaro, Im sure Jowett would pick up on that just as sucessfully in the Javelin and Jupiter.
My Spelling is Not Incorrect...It's 'Creative'
PAUL BEAUMONT
Posts: 452
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:57 pm
Your interest in the forum: Bradford Registrar and club Chairman
Given Name: Paul
Location: South Yorkshire

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by PAUL BEAUMONT »

I think that this introspection is gazing in the wrong place. Focus on the CD Bradford model range and you might get better clues.
One platform for various vehicle variants. Strong emphasis on commercial vehicles. Continued enthusiasm for the boxer engine giving greater passenger space and low centre of mass etc
Closest thing that I can think of is Subaru. Don't forget that Subaru make a myriad of vehicles that don't make it out of Asia. As for 4 wheel drive, don't you think that the success of 1950's Landrover might not have inspired them that way?
Then again maybe they would have hoovered up a disillusioned Isigonis and made the mini properly!!
Who knows!!

Paul
Paul Beaumont
The Bradford man
Posts: 165
Joined: Sun Feb 04, 2007 2:54 am
Your interest in the forum: Jowetts, Subarus, Any thing with a Boxer engine.
Given Name: James
Location: CHRISTCHURCH, NEW ZEALAND

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by The Bradford man »

Prehaps a modern Jupiter would look like the new Toyota/Subaru FT86
Pics below are all the concepts so far. Production model be shown in late Nov.
Ps.. Im sorry about all the pics below

1st concept of FT86
Image

2nd concept of FT86 G sport
Image

3rd concept of FT86 II
Image

4th concept of Sicon FRS
Image
Image

5th concept, Subaru Artechiual
Image

Repaint of Toyota FT86 II
Image

6th concept, Subaru Artechiual II
Image
Image
Image
Image


Very low center of gravity
Image
James~
1953 Jowett Bradford CC truck restoration project
1937 Jowett 10hp
1939 Jowett 8hp

Chris~ RIP
Possibly the only person or one of the few that owned one of every type Bradford at the same time CA,CB,CC,CD.
1935 Jowett 7 Project unfinished.
Forumadmin
Site Admin
Posts: 20648
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:18 pm
Your interest in the forum: Not a lot!
Given Name: Forum

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by Forumadmin »

Picking up on Paul B.'s point, what evolution do we think the CD range would have followed? There are concepts which might continue such as the flat four engine, a chassis with bolt on differing bodies, but what about suspension?

Would the company have split like Rover into commercial and saloon, perhaps divesting the sports car to a subsidiary? The OctoberJowetteer lays blame on poor production management rather than financial management to the demise. So if they had good management, where would they have taken the company?

I have done some business training where we used simulators to predict results from decisions made by management teams. It is amazing how companies develop based on what decisions are made by all the roles within a company. Getting marketing, sales, production and finance working in unison is extremely difficult.
PAUL BEAUMONT
Posts: 452
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:57 pm
Your interest in the forum: Bradford Registrar and club Chairman
Given Name: Paul
Location: South Yorkshire

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by PAUL BEAUMONT »

You're hot off the mark Keith, I have not got an October Jowetteer yet!!
You raise some very interesting questions and it sounds like someone has written an article along the lines of my thoughts.
Jowett had been wedded to the boxer engine concept from 1910 and Gerald Palmer had made a very good case for continuing with it (His case is very similar to that made by the Chief Engineer at Subaru when they planned their 6-cylinder engine) so I guess that the boxer engine would have continued. Jowett had tried in 1946 to create 2 entities (commercial and Passenger car) and then in 1950 had to arrange a marriage (Same Stable advert) so I fancy that 2 businesses would have been unlikely. What the accountants should have told the senior management, with increasing volume, was that from the mid 1930' s Commercial vehicles were where they were earning money. Even in 1952 the antediluvian Bradford was generating cash for the Javelin and Jupiter to swallow!! I fancy that a sensible management regime would have seen the Jupiter as a mistake as an in house project, but maybe continued to make power plant available to the special body or niche manufacturer market (taking a lead from the 1930-40's industrial engine sales) whilst concentrating on more mundane but revenue generating products on the one platform basis. I suspect that 4wheel drive might well have featured - in my previous post I forgot about the brief association with Harry Ferguson.
Into the 21century maybe a niche product in the people carrier/small to mid range commercial vehicle world, technically interesting but mundane??

Paul
Paul Beaumont
Forumadmin
Site Admin
Posts: 20648
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:18 pm
Your interest in the forum: Not a lot!
Given Name: Forum

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by Forumadmin »

The Jupiter was there to woo the American market and generate much needed foreign income. You may have seen some contemporary letters I received about buying a Javelin and how difficult it was.
Jack
Posts: 1113
Joined: Tue Mar 30, 2010 11:49 am
Location: Herts

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by Jack »

Well, this has thrown up some interesting opinions already, looking at the Bradford CD it seems to be similar to something like the Subaru Legacy Estate - large, practical, low centre of gravity, and just look at the nose:

Image

vs

Image

Seems a very similar concept, the looks aren't a million miles away - it is conceivable that if successful the CD could have become as successful and evolved in the same way that the Legacy did over the years.

Is there a better fit that we are missing? Something like the Legacy could have evolved from the CD, then perhaps a car with the PT Cruisers looks in the 90s as a retro look back to the iconic Javelin.

Jack.
Forumadmin
Site Admin
Posts: 20648
Joined: Tue Feb 07, 2006 5:18 pm
Your interest in the forum: Not a lot!
Given Name: Forum

Ed gave bad email address so cannot reply

Post by Forumadmin »

Ed gave bad email address so cannot reply!
So anybody near Derby college?
-------------------------------

My name is Edward Otter and I am a prooduct design student from Derby.
I currently have been set an assignment which is based around the company, Jowett.
I am to research the Jowett brand, and design a car, for the modern day, taking influence from the previous generations. The research I have done so far has led me to believe that the Jowett Jupiter was the most famous car the company produced, and for this reason, the sporty 2-seater is the kind of car i would like to try to re-invent. I believe if the company were to apear on the market again, a jupiter style would be the best way, but mabe in small batches, and precisely crafted.
What would be really useful for me would be to know the major asthetic details that you and the members of the Jowett Club believe really made a Jowett. There may be things that i can not see that you and the others know well.
Thankyou for your time and I look forward to hearing back from you.

Yours Sincerely,

Edward Otter
george garside
Posts: 673
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:47 pm
Location: formby , merseyside

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by george garside »

my fanciful vision of a 21st century Jowett would see a return to the roots of the company in the time of Ben & William Jowett. It would of course be a flat twin in anticipateion of the modern trend for few cylinders , a technology that was of course foreseen ny the Jowett Brothers over a humddred years ago and is now boasted about by both Fiat anad Ford ( fiattwinair aan 900 cc 3 cyl focus) .it would of course be horizontallyh opposed to provide superb balance,

Again in line with the companies heritage it would be Ford Mondeo, Vuxhaul Vectra size with a maximum speed of 80mph, but of course with the abilityh , like Jowetts of yore to curuise indefinately at near maaximum speed and not a bit more~! after all who needs the ability to exeed the national speed limit by more than 10mph!. It might be diesel to provide the right amount of low speed torque and would have class leading fuel consumption. Unlike the offerings of ford 7 vauxhall it would have the eco plus feature of an unladen weight of around 16/17 cwt . As to style iit would be in keeping with contempory 21st century vehicles of its size in the samae way as were its pre war 7 and 8hp forebears.

george :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
AlanBartlett
Posts: 759
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2006 1:34 pm
Your interest in the forum: 1934 Long Saloon
1935 Weasel Sports Tourer
1936 Jowett Lorry (A basket case)
1953 Jowett Bradford Lorry
Given Name: Alan
Location: Somerset

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by AlanBartlett »

If Jowett were still in production today, how do you think it would have effected the club? if at all? Perhaps more members with the modern vehicles?
"Don't Let The Sound Of Your Own Wheels Drive You Crazy" The Eagles, Take It Easy
george garside
Posts: 673
Joined: Sun Feb 12, 2006 9:47 pm
Location: formby , merseyside

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by george garside »

Alan, when I , Tony and others joined the club in 1962 it was viirtualy a '' Javelin'' club with a few pre war and Cintage members and Bradford owners that you could count on one hand! This was because the Javelins were peoples one and only i.e.'modern' vehicle and were in daily use. I had a CC Bradford de lux utility trhat was only 9 years old and was my only vehicle covering around 15000 miles a year on business aand pleasure. Club events were something like 90 % javelin with a smattering of Jupiters ( pssibly because there was JOAC which catered only for Jups.

I suppose if Jowetts were still being made it would be not disimiler with lines with current and recent daily use models being in the majority

george
Chris Spencer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:45 pm
Your interest in the forum: Jowett Restoration Specialist
Given Name: Chris
Location: Hampshire. UK

Re: 21st Century Jowett

Post by Chris Spencer »

To produce a whole new car to todays modern production standards would be one hell of an undertaking - However it has come about in conversation before today that while the club celebrates it's 90th year - in another ten years it really ought to be a massive celebration - to mark that event has a club we really ought to start the thought process now. We are not in a position to fund anything major but I think that if we all worked together we could come up with something really special. So one idea is to stick with the very classic style of a Javelin bodyshell but re-engineer the car - so new / modern running gear / suspension / servo brakes / power steering / modern seats / electrics / lights / seating / air conditioning etc. There are plenty of Javelin bodyshells still around - and a donor vehicle for the mechanicals is not an issue - we need a plan - some willing members - maybe we could get some of the colleges involved in the project or a univeristy - we could even involve schools - either way we have nothing to loose - if we can engage with the younger generation the whole project could tick a lot of boxes not the mention the publicity angle - we can plan now - gather the parts over the next few years and embark on the build say in 5 years time.
Last edited by Chris Spencer on Mon Feb 11, 2013 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
37 Jowett 8 HP - In many parts
52 Javelin Std 'Taxi Livery'
52 Javelin Std Patina project
52 Javelin Std Sports project
52 Jupiter SA - Original car - full restoration project
Post Reply

Return to “Natter”