A recommended engine rebuilder.

[Srenner]

Hello all:

Wow, would you believe all of the above CAN be true? Sometimes things are easy and sometimes things get messy, and messy comes in many forms, takes way too long and costs more than logic would dictate.

Certainly 30 years of building street and race motors helps with planning the build of a Jowett motor. Note the word "planning". It's the key to a good running motor at the end of the process. And cleanliness is paramount.

As for hours to build one, that's a little tough. After several builds, I'd say about 40 hrs would be my guesstimate for the assembly. I have done it in much less time and certainly spent double that time as well. If one includes tear down of the bad motor, cleaning parts, blasting and painting, sorting bits, running around to get parts, dealing with machine shops and all the rest, then the time required can expand.

We all know the repair manual leaves a lot to be desired, but the basics are in there and a good machine shop can advise on some of the more esoteric bits of motor building. After all, it's not rocket science, just Jowettering!

I am willing to help online if anyone has questions.

[Tim Neville]

Having read all the posts so far, it seems to me that a reasonable build time for an engine is not contested by most. However the sourcing, testing, checking, machining etc. of parts is increasingly the problem. There's the 'get it going it will be alright for a while, and any way I can't afford a precision rebuild' group (perhaps the majority?) and then there's the ' we must get it absolutely correct, thoroughly engineered, inspected and tested, sod the expense' group. Hence there is a huge difference between one persons cost to get an engine going and anothers!
That it is getting more difficult to find good local workshop engineers is true, but they do still exist and of course need business like ours to keep going. I've got a chap doing some boring and reaming for me now, and there's nothing he doesn't know about engines!
I think that we as a club need to do more and spend more in support of JCS to get a comprehensive,accurate, catalogued inventory (is there already one?) which is available to members and updated regularly. And to identify those parts, particularly the critical stuff, that are problemmatical and get them sourced/made. I know considerable effort has been made in this direction,but if we want parts we as a club are going to have to pay in advance for them. We need to be proactive in ensuring that as long as there are Jowetts there will be parts for them - a not inconsiderable task!

[Forumadmin]

I am glad this topic is generating some discussion, which is why I raised it as a result of discussions with Peter.

The list of tasks or parts I put up previously is a good place to start to identify those that we need to have some co-operative effort to source. The problem, as ever , with Jowetts is getting a reasonable volume of orders together to pool our resources and bring the price down. Even getting 20 orders can be a problem. Now, the Project B team has a plan to do 3 engines at once. It may not materialise that way, but it is a plan. The aim is to train as many people as we can about the nuances of Jowett engines (like the Scottish Section).

I have the bits from about 10 engines, so sorting serviceable ( or at least reconditionable parts) from those is the first challenge. I doubt if many of the parts will be suitable for a competition engine (I have used those up I suspect), but some will be suitable for a 'potter about' engine, which these days is all that is required!

I do recommend setting a budget for the engine based on what you have as serviceable parts and what you want the engine to acheive. Start off with your aims and desires and, as you check each component, perhaps modify your goals. There is no point in spending £1000 on a new camshaft if the rest of the valvegear is shot. With every component you need to get a balance of spend. As Chris said tonight there is no point in putting new bearings on a worn crankshaft (which is, as it happens, my first Jowett experience in 1968 when the previous owner had done just that). However, getting the oil feed and bottom end right is certainly where I would start. If I could not afford to 'do' the top end then that is OK. Perhaps wait a couple of years and do that when you can afford it. However, having done that myself for many years I think I would recommend taking a mortgage out to do it all at once as it will be cheaper in the long run.

So, guys and gals, let us identify what we all want and try to pool our resources. We could use technology here and have some voting ; but I suspect that the results will not be representative. Just let us collect some discussion and feed that into our spares team and individuals who can get jobs done.

8 straight push rods,
4 matched and tested con rods
..........
and a partidge in a pear tree

[PJGD]

One possible start for this initiative might be for all interested parties to modify this parts list, downloadable here: http://pdingle214687.home.comcast.net/T ... s_List.xls
and fill it in with parts that you know are directly interchangeable, or add comments relating to parts that seem hard to find. In that way, this could become a working document.

Philip

[Chris Spencer]

Just touching on comments from Philip & Tim, Firstly there are some very talented established engine builders who specialise in historic & classic engines of all types - would it stop me from instructing one of them to rebuild a Jowett engine if they did not have experience of them - well no it wouldn't - if they have a proven track record and references. Secondly they will have built far more complex engines than Jowett ever built - Rolls / Bugatti / classic race engines etc all with greater tolerances than you would ever find in a Jowett engine.

I would never subscribe to the school of putting a engine together 'just for pottering around' - or making do with the pile of bits that I had because that is all I have or can afford - what is the point of risking a good pair of crankcases, crankshaft, pistons, valve gear, heads etc for the sake of making do - at the point it goes bang it is far from a cheap engine! - I realise we hold little access to new parts and I am not one for throwing pots of money at everything - has already stated I would not be making do with with parts which are clearly beyond their best - I would however invest in the time, effort along with some money to build the best that I could afford out of what I had.

Please remember that some owners and members do not have access to workshop facilities or have the knowledge / skills to rebuild engines and at this point they have to fund the invoices of someone that has. Labour is likely to be largest significant factor of a professional Jowett engine rebuild hence why figures of several thousand pounds are being quoted equally please do not jump to the conclusion that the rest of us that do have engine rebuilding experience are going to throw one together by spending a few hundred pounds and the use of whatever rusty bent bits we can put our hands on.

[PJGD]

Chris;
No argument from me about the complexity of the Jowett engine; it is a relatively small and simple engine especially in comparison with some of the more high class vintage machinery. My main point which echos a point that you made earlier, is that I don't believe that you can build a really good engine without taking the time to study and understand all the changes and modifications that JCL made during the course of its production life. Only some of this information appears in the Maintenance Manual, the rest is resident in various parts of the Jowett community.

The risk to the good pair of crankcases comes from assembling an engine and torquing the head nuts up to 40 ft/lb because that is what the spec in the Manual says, whereas the considered opinion presently with the currently available head gasket and the old, weakened crankcases is that ~37 ft/lb is a much safer torque value. Access to the combined knowledge of the Club is essential, but not all potential engine builders will have that access. How do we assist a modern day professional engine rebuilder who has been commissioned by a Club member? Should an updated "crowd sourced" version of Mike Allfrey's notes be made available to engine builders? I don't know; these are just some ideas......

Philip

[Chris Spencer]

Philip - You are very much correct in the points made in your posting, we already have a excellent foundation of what direction we need to take and how it is achievable. Alistair Gregg is heading the Jowett Legacy project which aims to collect, collate and make available all information on Jowett - be it history, factual, technical or simply a way of improving things.

Drummond has held engine rebuilding classes over several weekends which have been very well attended by our Scottish members (some traveling significant mileage to attend). Martin has recorded all the classes to video and along with Drummond will now edit the tens of hours down to make a DVD which shall be made available in due course. Not just content with one engine the Scottish section are now planning to rebuild a second - this is just the commitment we need from members if we are to face the challenge 'head on' of keeping our Jowetts on the road.

Keith Clements along with the Southern section North Thames team has three, possibly four engine rebuilds waiting in the wings which shall be undertaken over the next year or so - some real planning, time, commitment and expense is being expedited here - with new workshop facilities being built has I write (all construction work by the team themselves) - in order in order to facilitate the said engine rebuilds along with other Jowett restoration projects - all recorded and posted to the forum / legacy project has a ongoing commitment.

I am sure other members out there are hard at work contributing to the cause, helping other members with knowledge and spares whilst not forgetting our hero's at Jowett Spares. The great thing about debate like this is that it highlights our strengths and pin points the odd weakness - the strengths are many and the weakness we can address and rectify - so just to conclude 'What a fantastic effort all' - for a group of individuals to get together has members / volounteers / Jowett owners and progress the great cause - keep up the good work (and the debate).

[David Morris]

Hi,

John Airey and I have set about assembling a Javelin engine ( with John doing most of the actual engineering work at his well-equipped garage/workshop in Swindon - thanks John! ). This project has the aim of ending up with a good serviceable engine, which will be our stand-by engine, ready to slot into our Javelins as and when (!) we need a replacement. We have received very valuable and practical help from fellow Jowetteers, from JCS and the excellent articles on JowettTalk.

This has been a lengthy task, which has yet to complete, and has been a learning exercise for us both. The biggest headache to date has been the struggle to find a matching pair of crankcases that were crack-free. John's workshop is now home to many blocks that have either failed our pressure tests or have been welded in the past by previous owners and have unfortunately suffered distortion, which we found when used for trial crankcase assembly. We now have a full set of serviceable components and final assembly has commenced.

Hopefully, when we have the engine running successfully on the test bed, we shall be able to write-up the lessons learned and describe the test set-ups that have had to be made to prove the components.

To answer the question about how long a build-up would take is almost impossible with our 60 year-old components. There are so many checks that need to be made on potentially worn items and these have to be refurbished or duplicates found or manufactured. Yes, it might take 30 hours with everything on the bench in a perfect state, but that is not the world we recognise and we are handling precious and often scarce items. It takes as long as it takes!

However, I think Tony Fearn is right when he mentions that we should not discourage members by some of the figures mentioned in earlier posts. We are assembling our engine on a tight budget. Yes, if you want to use an engine for competition, then this will need lots of additional preparation and this will cost. But if, like us, you use your Jowett for every-day use and Rallies, then I am sure this can be achieved within a moderate budget without cutting corners. In my estimation, a serviceable engine is one which you could use without hesitation or fear for a 100+ mile journey, at 50-60 mph and in every-day traffic and weather conditions. When our modern car failed during this week-end, we used our Javelin for the weekly shopping and she often doubles as our second car.

Things are different now, compared with the 1960's, as sources of spares dry up, but don't despair, we Jowetteers are born keepers of spares, 'might come in handy sometime' is our best motto! I am sure we will be able to describe our journey towards the replacement engine soon and I hope this will be a source of encouragement and support!

All the best,

David

[Chris Spencer]

David - Your point in reference to Tony's comment that potential members or owners may be put off by this discussion and the expense of rebuilding a Jowett engine. Far from it in my opinion - I am of strong belief that debate of this nature details how resourceful we are as a club, what help is available through the membership, how Jowett spares can help / advise and look at the re manufacture of parts. This is not a unique situation to just Jowetts - any professional engine build is going to be heading in a expensive direction when compared to that of a home / self built engine. We really are very good at what we do as a club and to be honest it was the main reason for buying my 8HP when I was looking for a 30's car - and if anything debate of this nature would not detract any sensible potential Jowett owner of membership of the club.