A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

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Leo Bolter
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:32 am
Your interest in the forum: Proud owner of:
1 x 1951 Jowett Jupiter
1 x 1952 LE Velocette
1 x 1952 Jowett Bradford
2 x 1982 Princess 2 litre
Location: R. D. 2, Palmerston North, 4472, New Zealand.

A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by Leo Bolter »

Sadly I was let down by the SU electric fuel pump during the climb to the chair lifts on Mount Ruapehu at the latter part of the JCC of NZ National Rally. I used the old trick of sliding the exterior points sideway a smidgeon a couple of times to try to make it work . . . it wouldn’t supply petrol going up but would going downhill! Anyway, I managed to get back to my accommodation where I removed the pump and then the points and cleaned the burned and pitted surface as best I could by using a volcanic rock to “polish” the pitted surface. After it was all assembled a trial run up the mountain showed all was well (or so I thought!).

Yes, it behaved all around Ohakune, but on the journey home to Palmerston North it was a different story . . . much coaxing was needed. BUT, I MADE IT.
Come to think about it the electric pump is about the only thing that has caused me strife on a long trip . . well that’s if one excludes a ring coming through the top of a piston on a South Island tour many years ago, back when I was using Jowett pistons!

I had a spare pump at home (of course!), but on examination of them both an interesting thing was noticed. One had a resistor fitted and the other had a capacitor . . . and I have been told of others which have just points alone.

A search of the internet revealed that over the years SU have tried to reduce the arcing by using resistors, capacitors, diodes and Zener diodes . . . these were attempts to reduce the VERY high back voltage generated by the solenoid coil at the time of the points opening (much like a ignition system is designed to). Without these devices (some of which were inclined to be marginal in effect!) there was sufficient energy available to relatively quickly pit and burn the points contacts . . . to a point where they wouldn’t conduct at all (my problem!).

The latest, and more modern, method to suppress the high voltage is to use a device called a TVS diode (Transient Voltage Suppressor) of suitable specifications.

Basically the bi-directional ones work like this:
a/ Being bi-directional the diode is not affected by the polarity of the car (hook it up any way is okay).
b/ It is two special diodes back to back within the case.
c/ What is special is that the diodes will allow electricity to pass one way (as is usual with diodes), but unlike “normal” diodes which block the electricity when the polarity is reversed, the special-ness of the TVS means that it still does that but, when the voltage reaches a certain value it DOES conduct and dumps the very high voltage to earth,
d/ You can see then, that if a TVS is chosen that has a “dump” voltage of say 30 volts on a vehicle that has a 12 volt system everything works fine . . . except those pesky ultra high and damaging volts don’t have to pass through the pump points . . . they get dumped by the device when the circuit reaches about 30 volts!

Now for some more good news!

The TSVs are SO CHEAP. Here in NZ I bought 2 for $9.00 (including GST). The tails on the device are just the right length to be curled around to make a terminal under the appropriate screws and the pump’s Bakelite cap still fits on without any trouble.

What you ask for at JayCars Electronics is Catalogue # ZR1177.

Another number is Fairchild 1.5KE24CA if you want to try different source.

For those overseas a big outfit like Radio Spares have them too. Here’s the NZ link to the specifications.
http://newzealand.rs-online.com/web/sea ... &R=5438450

PLEASE NOTE: I HAVE JUST FITTED THIS MODIFICATION to my Jupiter, It may not last! If it does then fine, but I am going to carry a spare pump anyway . . . . . Why, someone else may need a working pump!

Image

Cheers.
Leo.
R. Leo Bolter,
Palmerston North,
New Zealand.

JCC of NZ - Member No 0741.
JOAC - Member No 0161

Car: Jupiter (E1-SA-513-R)

Skype name = jupiter1951
Messenger name = r.l.bolter"at"massey.ac.nz
ian Howell
Posts: 963
Joined: Thu Feb 09, 2006 10:46 am
Your interest in the forum: From 1962 to '63, CA Bradord LLG 125 (Repaired and used).
From 1966 to '67 Black deLuxe Javelin LDF 738 (Scrapped with broken chassis)
From 1967 to '87 Black de Luxe Javelin MKC 1 (later 6469TU). (Sold as non-runner with tons of spares, 1987)
From about 1980 to '87 ex WD Jowett stationary engine. (Sold on)
From 1966 to present, 1930 Long Four Fabric Saloon, Dark Blue / Black.
Taken in a part-repaired state to the 2010 Centenary Rally, returned to a roadworthy state by 2013.
Given Name: Ian
Location: Eastbourne, East Sussex, England
Contact:

Re: A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by ian Howell »

I think these are the same devices known in the U K as Metal Oxide Varistors - MOVs.

Readily available 'from all good electronic component stores' in a range of voltages, but 50v seems OK.

I use them in my work on electronic access control systems, which usually rely on an electromagnetic locking device of some kind which has a solenoid like the ones in fuel pumps, but this time the solenoid moves the innerds of the locking device.

I am about to try a MOV on the contacts of the wiper motor on my Long Four. This is a Lucas 'Spin to Start' type and has a HUGE back e.m.f. which has burnt out the contacts on all but one of the four motors that I have acquired from various sources. Also as spares don't seem to be available, I hope to make up a replacement contact set.

Has anyone else had/solved this problem?
The devil is in the detail!
Leo Bolter
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:32 am
Your interest in the forum: Proud owner of:
1 x 1951 Jowett Jupiter
1 x 1952 LE Velocette
1 x 1952 Jowett Bradford
2 x 1982 Princess 2 litre
Location: R. D. 2, Palmerston North, 4472, New Zealand.

Re: A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by Leo Bolter »

Hi Ian.

I say . . Good on yer mate!
. . . as spares don't seem to be available, I hope to make up a replacement contact set
I'm proud of you . . . I had to make a entirely new "moving point" component by using the existing leaf spring and cannibalised contacts (from some other points) for my LE Velo which was fitted with a BTH dynamo/ignition combo. This involved marking out, cutting, drilling and filing of the thick "formica" as required. The stationary half just needed the contacts replaced.

But, it was worth the trouble, and was most satisfying actually making something as apposed to just going out and buying (they were not available anyway) . . . and have so far lasted about 20 years! I have also kept a toaster we were given as a wedding present well past its "use by date" by sweating little disks of silver onto its switch contacts. It's still going strong!
As an aside, the silver for this job was salvaged many years previously from a very large mains fuse (like 200 amps maybe??) that exploded when a electrician was working on the Main switchboard of the building I had a office in at Massey University.

Some may consider me as being "tight", but to me there's no sense in dumping stuff that I'm able to fix and certainly no satisfaction in popping a new "wotsit" on the old plastic debit card . . . . the new one will more than likely have a lifetime of 5 years . . . if we are lucky.

We should have a motto! . . . how about the sexy, "we can reproduce" . . . or maybe Obama's "we can do it". Any suggestions?
R. Leo Bolter,
Palmerston North,
New Zealand.

JCC of NZ - Member No 0741.
JOAC - Member No 0161

Car: Jupiter (E1-SA-513-R)

Skype name = jupiter1951
Messenger name = r.l.bolter"at"massey.ac.nz
Chris Spencer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:45 pm
Your interest in the forum: Jowett Restoration Specialist
Given Name: Chris
Location: Hampshire. UK

Re: A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by Chris Spencer »

Mr Clements - Following our pretty sucessful workshop / garage / storage clearout (so far) - PLEASE disregard all comments made by Leo in relation to keeping everything that may otherwise end up in the bin - you have proved your point but there comes a stage in life that you can only do so much recycling / storing / saving items just in case, in case ! - None the less having recently invested in a vehicle turner / several decent lumps of workshop equipment / new welder / new modern A - B car / new cooker - we can not excactly call you tight !!!
37 Jowett 8 HP - In many parts
52 Javelin Std 'Taxi Livery'
52 Javelin Std Patina project
52 Javelin Std Sports project
52 Jupiter SA - Original car - full restoration project
marshalljackson
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:06 pm
Your interest in the forum: 1951 Jowett Jupiter (434)
1966 Ford Fairlane 500XL Convertible
Given Name: Marshall

Re: A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by marshalljackson »

I'm very new to these conversations, so hopefully, I'm not repeating old news, but I just had a similar problem with my SU Fuel Pump. I found a gentleman in Washington State, Dave DuBois at: SUfuelpumps@donobi.net . Here is his website: http://homepages.donobi.net/sufuelpumps/
Dave will 'convert' your existing SU Fuel Pump to a solid state fuel pump. He claims it will still make the 'click click click' sounds we are all so fond of (even without the points). He charges about $100 US depending on what is required of each specific pump. I haven't sent my pump to him yet, but I am tempted. Has anyone else tried such a conversion?

Fuel for all!

Marshall Jackson
Los Altos, CALIFORNIA, USA

1951 Jupiter E1 SAL 434R
1966 Ford Fairlane 500XL Convertible
Last edited by marshalljackson on Wed Jun 08, 2011 3:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
Amy
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:36 pm
Your interest in the forum: 1954 SC Jupiter, TTD 88
Given Name: Amy
Location: Herts

Re: A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by Amy »

Hi Marshall - welcome to JowettTalk :)

I don't know if you know Scott Renner (he's also CA-based and amongst other things can be found racing Jupiters), but I'd be willing to bet that he'll know about the chap you mention in your post or probably know someone who does / have seen his work. It's worth contacting him (he's registered on the forum) as I'm sure he'll give you an opinion on whether it's worth spending $100... :D

Amy.
1954 SC Jupiter, TTD 88
1990 Mk1 Mazda Eunos Roadster
1980 Bedford CF Camper

Who said heel-and-toeing wasn't possible in stilettos...?
marshalljackson
Posts: 5
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2011 5:06 pm
Your interest in the forum: 1951 Jowett Jupiter (434)
1966 Ford Fairlane 500XL Convertible
Given Name: Marshall

Re: A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by marshalljackson »

Thanks Amy,
I met Scott this last weekend up in Healdsburg, CA at the Jowett Rally (and historic Car Races at Infineon Raceway.) I would have spoken with all the Jup owners I met this weekend about this conversion ability, but I didn't learn about it until Monday.
Hopefully, more news soon!
Marshall
Edmund Nankivell
Posts: 48
Joined: Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:17 pm
Your interest in the forum: Anything Jupiter is of abiding interest to me
Given Name: Edmund
Location: UK
Contact:

Re: A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by Edmund Nankivell »

Over here in the UK we can buy SU fuel pumps, the exact thing, completely interchangeable, but with solid-state replacement for those unreliable electro-mechanical contacts. They are available from Morris Minor spares suppliers.
Edmund Nankivell
Leo Bolter
Posts: 367
Joined: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:32 am
Your interest in the forum: Proud owner of:
1 x 1951 Jowett Jupiter
1 x 1952 LE Velocette
1 x 1952 Jowett Bradford
2 x 1982 Princess 2 litre
Location: R. D. 2, Palmerston North, 4472, New Zealand.

Re: A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by Leo Bolter »

I won't say a thing . . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2qp5CPUIenM

. . . . I can't find the words! :lol: :lol: :roll:
R. Leo Bolter,
Palmerston North,
New Zealand.

JCC of NZ - Member No 0741.
JOAC - Member No 0161

Car: Jupiter (E1-SA-513-R)

Skype name = jupiter1951
Messenger name = r.l.bolter"at"massey.ac.nz
Amy
Posts: 205
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2007 2:36 pm
Your interest in the forum: 1954 SC Jupiter, TTD 88
Given Name: Amy
Location: Herts

Re: A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by Amy »

Excellent! :lol:

Do you reckon that gains marks in a concours? :wink:
1954 SC Jupiter, TTD 88
1990 Mk1 Mazda Eunos Roadster
1980 Bedford CF Camper

Who said heel-and-toeing wasn't possible in stilettos...?
Chris Spencer
Posts: 1937
Joined: Sat Oct 24, 2009 8:45 pm
Your interest in the forum: Jowett Restoration Specialist
Given Name: Chris
Location: Hampshire. UK

Re: A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by Chris Spencer »

Providing the hammer is clean and polished - why not :o
37 Jowett 8 HP - In many parts
52 Javelin Std 'Taxi Livery'
52 Javelin Std Patina project
52 Javelin Std Sports project
52 Jupiter SA - Original car - full restoration project
Mike Allfrey
Posts: 491
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2006 10:14 am
Your interest in the forum: It is a good vehicle for getting Jowett information to others.
Given Name: Michael
Location: Melbourne, AUSTRALIA.

Re: A Sad Story . . with a happy ending. We hope

Post by Mike Allfrey »

I finally gave up on SU petrol pump points some years ago. This was mainly because some bodger had always been in there long before me.

My Jupiter now has an electronic SU pump, purchased from Holden Vintage & Classic. The best part of the deal was that I placed my order late on a Thursday night (Australian Eastern Time) and the following Monday morning at 7:30 am it was delivered to my door. All transport links must have 'clicked' just right on that one.

Nice to see mention of a Velocette LE. My father had one from new in the early 1950s, and I remember him fiddling with the BTH magneto several times.

Regards,

Mike A.
E0 SA 42R; Rover 75
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