Kings Langley garage meet

[Mike Allfrey]

Hello Keith, Philip and Scott,

All very interesting. Good to see the Repco Formula One engine bits. The late Phil Irving, who developed that engine lived just along the road from where we lived previously. I met him several times and we used to talk about the Javelin/Jupiter engine. He reckoned that it was a good engine that needed more 'development thrown at it' - his term. He also suggested that the crankcase required stiffening and that the oil flow to the connecting rod bearings should be increased. During one of our discussions, I mentioned that Jowett had introduced oil-ways (grooves) behind the main bearing shells. He liked that and suggested that the crankshaft should have run in plain surface main bearings.

Such has been successfully achieved in New Zealand by Neil Moore, using Perkins P3, P4 and P6 big end bearings as mains in the Jowett engine, His modification includes drilling holes for the shell retaining dowels and cutting slots, at both ends of the shells, that align with the oil-way grooves in the crankcase. For those crankcases that do not have the grooves, he machines them. I have been doing the same here using a local engine reconditioning business, who has since ceased trading and all of the machine tools have departed for China. We have to find another machine shop that listens to and acts exactly upon what I ask for - in the present situation, that is not at all easy.

The modification of the Perkins connecting rod bearings is contained in one of my technical notes series. It is my firm belief that this type of main bearing be adopted as a standard procedure. We have a great amount to thank Neil Moore for.

I like the idea of a 0.5-in. stiffener plate to fit between the crankcase and the sump, along with the increased engine oil capacity. If only I were younger!

Reference the repair of the drilled oil feed cylinder head stud, when the seat boss has broken away, my method for attempting a repair is to try to avoid building up the boss area with weld material, my worry is distortion at the cylinder head gasket surface. With the engine I have been involved with these past seven years, the face at the rear after welding sank 0.012-in. Too much for a gasket to cope with. With regard to my method of repair, I am leaning towards using small bore Nylon tubes with olive and union nut fittings at both ends. Naturally, if the repair goes ahead and is successful, I will send details for distribution to club members.

To be continued,

Mike A.

[Mike Allfrey]

To Continue:
One point I noted while reading through this lengthy topic, was comment about Lucas distributor rotation. In all Lucas service information, direction of rotation is as when viewed from the drive input end – that is, in the Jowett application, clockwise. There is also an arrow stamped into the distributor body to confirm this.

Reference the external balance pipe, there was a lengthy article about this in Jowetteer in the mid-1960s, I think. My understanding, and my wasting away memory, of the reason for an external balance pipe assembly was to avoid the crankshaft cutting through the internal pipe and thus causing massive amounts of oil smoke from the exhaust. I do not think the project was due to ineffective internal balance pipe seals. I have always admired the design of the Jowett balance pipe.

If my memory is correct, the original balance pipe seals that came with the Payen gasket set, were of square ring form with a moulded ‘countersink’ for the internal pipe to seat on, not ‘O’ rings at all.

Getting back to the main bearings, as long as Massey-Ferguson 35 and 35X and Fordson Major E27N tractors are being restored and used, the supply of Perkins P3, P4, P6 and (to the best of my knowledge) the Perkins 3A-152 engines used by those tractors, should, through a tractor parts company called Bepco, continue to be available for our use. In addition, but I am not sure, the Fordson Dexta tractor used the P3 engine, as did numerous Ferguson TE-20 tractor models. The needs of Jowett engines should help maintain the availability of the bearing sets. The same applies to the connecting rod bearings sourced from the Perkins 4-99 engine, for which Bepco can also supply. Sadly, that company does not list bearing sets below 0.040-in. under-size – that is probably related to the diesel engine application. Maybe, Bepco can be persuaded to introduce bearings of 0.050 and 0.060-in. under-size for Jowett use if the demand warrants such action?

The crankshaft bearings for the Perkins diesel engines are well-known for long operating life under hard work conditions. That means that, under lighter loads in the Jowett engine, their life will be greatly extended.

It is necessary for all Jowett clubs, world wide, to adopt a single strategy with regard to crankshaft bearings. However, whether that can happen is extremely doubtful, but with intelligent modern communications should be easy. Jowett owners and repairers should shelve their differences of opinion and work together for one simple solution that could be super-effective. Regrettably, that will never happen!

Crankshafts – it is my understanding that Jowett Engineering Ltd. when deciding to introduce the oval web Laystall crankshaft, would have opted for the cheapest method of producing a durable crankshaft. It would have also been a priority that the shaft would be a direct replacement for the earlier shaft types, hence the noted thickness of the webs. Looking back, it took the British motor industry a long time to introduce a main bearing between each cylinder. At the time the Javelin engine was being designed, some four cylinder engines were using two main bearing crankshafts.

For normal motoring, not extreme motor racing, the Laystall crankshaft, properly supported in good quality crankshaft bearings, and balanced as a unit with flywheel and clutch plate assembly, will provide a magnificently long operating life – provided the engine oil and oil filtration is properly maintained. The flywheel is tied in with its dowel, the clutch plate will require identifying stamp marks.

Mention of quality balancing reminds me of a BSA A7 500 cc twin I owned in my youth. That engine, clutch and gearbox had been meticulously balanced at the Bristol Aeroplane Company at Filton by the fellow I bought it from. At low idle the lack of vibration was astounding, and it remained super-smooth right up the rev range. I have often wondered if BAC knew what had been going on in their jet engine department!

Regards,

Mike A.

[Keith Clements]

Top of the piston liners have a ridge with a valley either side. How is that going to seal? Perhaps it might give more bite.

[Mike Allfrey]

What have we here?

It looks like a cylinder liner from an engine with Siamese cylinder bores for compactness. Probably requires a particular head gasket type?

Mike A.

[PJGD]

The flat-sided liner does look like it was intended for a totally different engine perhaps with a Siamesed bore, however the ridge on the top face is fairly common with MLS gaskets which would be hard to seal without that feature.

[Keith Clements]

This shows the location arrangement of these liners.
I have not taken them out so do not know how they are sealed at the bottom.

Multi layer sreel gaskets https://www.chevyhardcore.com/tech-stor ... d-gaskets/

[Srenner]

Agree with all the opinions on the possible origins of the liners.

What head gasket type leads me to ask who built this motor and when? Were MLS gaskets around last time this motor ran? I am assuming the head gaskets were gone when the parts were delivered to Keith.

If the grooves don't foul the fire ring, I would guess they might aid in sealing: less area means more pressure per unit of area. Perhaps the grooves allow the gasket to squish into the groove?

JT has a discussion about MLS head gaskets in the last year or so. viewtopic.php?p=44727&hilit=mls+head+ga ... tic#p44727

Will the CR be above 12:1?

Would a solid copper gasket seal better than the composite one?

Are you going to pull the liners? Seems risky not to do so, but who knows what lurks at the bottom?

Tick,tock, tick, tock......

[Keith Clements]

Harry revealed that they are allegedly Wills ringed. I need to read up on this as I have no experience. The gap between head and block when torqued to 20 lb.ft is between 25 and 30 thou.
That is high but will have to check height of ridge on liner. We have standard gaskers, but could fit NZ but I also have some solid aluminium ones.
Thinking cap on!

[Mike Allfrey]

Hi Keith,

Must admit my first thought about the first photo of the cylinder liner was Wills rings, but then I thought you were familiar with such cylinder liners. The second photo has about convinced me, but I am not at all sure that MLS gaskets would work in a setup like the Jowett engine - dissimilar metals involved, along with possible small variations in liner protrusions, if any.

I have only read about Wills sealing rings, so cannot comment much about the entire system. I think there was an article in Jowett Jive (USA), by Ted Miller, many years ago about Jowett's use of the Wills rings system?

Both photos tell me that the liners are thin-walled and may not cope with protrusion-gasket-type-cylinder-head-tightening-torque as applied to the Jowett engine. Does that make sense? I seem to remember the first 2.5-litre BRM Formula One engine having trouble with thin-walled cylinder liners yielding, but that was most likely back in 1955.

Some interesting parts collected there - if only they could talk!

Regards,

Mike A.

[Srenner]

The part that makes me wonder if they are Wills ring type is that all the descriptions I can find mention a groove for the ring and associated pictures show a single groove. These have two grooves and a raised ridge in the center. Which groove gets the ring? Why a second groove? Two rings? Why the raised center?

Rambling through endless dead ends, but found this informative:

Fire Ring: This term refers to the metal sealing ring that surrounds the bore of the piston between the engine block and cylinder head. It can be part of the gasket itself, it can be assisted, or it can be stand-alone for any given application. Assisted sealing rings are normal Fire Rings, attached to the gasket, which have supplemented sealing qualities through the addition of o-rings. Stand-alone Fire Rings are not attached to the gasket, hence the name. These are types of assisted and stand-alone sealing rings: O-Rings, Wills/Elring/Cooper Rings, Pyramid Rings, Cut Rings. Each differs slightly from the others, usually in either their engagement or their seat.

O-Rings: This term is usually used to describe any block-to-head sealing rings that sit in machined recesses. As an engineer though, I can tell you that when speaking openly about about o-rings (as opposed to speaking to people who are actively/directly involved in the project/application you're discussing/working on), it is extremely important to differentiate and be very specific about which type of o-ring you're referring to. Typically, there are two types of o-rings....solid rings and crush rings. Because the term 'o-ring' is used so casually, you will see why misunderstandings take place. O-Rings are used with gaskets, and are either assisted or stand-alone in their sealing.

Solid O-rings: Solid o-rings are exactly that...solid rings of metal/wire which sit inside of recesses in the engine block. These applications place the solid o-rings in grooves in the block, and they seal against the bottom of the fire ring of the gasket upon engine assembly (the mating of the block and head). The recessed grooves in this type of application must be cut extremely precise, as any variation in depth will affect sealing...due to the lack of give or 'crush' in the rings.

Wills Rings (a.k.a. Elrings or Cooper Rings...NOT 'Copper Rings'): These rings are stand-alone, and are crush type 'o-rings'. True Wills/Elring/Cooper rings sit inside of recesses in either the just the engine block, or both the engine block and cylinder head. Wills/Elring/Cooper Rings are actually hollow, pressurized/gas charged rings, as opposed to solid material o-rings. The crushability and expansion of these type of rings is what sets them apart. As engine temps increase, and the engine reaches operating temps, the gases inside the Wills/Elring/Cooper rings allow them to expand, providing a direct, super-solid seal between the two engine halves.

Pyramid Rings: These rings are very similar to Wills/Elring/Cooper rings, except that they are solid stand-alone rings...not crush type. These rings sit in recesses of the cylinder liners, and are used with separate gaskets. Pyramid rings have single or multi-point peaks when viewed cross-sectioned. These peaks bite or cut into the soft alloy cylinder head, creating a strong, direct seal between the two engine halves. It's important to point out that Pyramid rings share attributes with both Cut-Rings and Wills/Elring/Cooper Rings.

Cut Rings: These rings are also solid stand-alone rings...not crush type. As opposed to Pyramid rings, Cut Rings do not sit in recesses of the engine block or cylinder liners. These rings sit directly atop the deck of the block or copper spacer, which is used in some applications. The seal is created by single or multi-point peaks in the top of the rings...just like the Pyramid Rings. A direct block-to-head seal is created, allowing the desired higher combustion pressures.

[Keith Clements]

Wills Rings liner seals on Jupiter engines.
There seem to be more Wills-Rings-sealed Jupiter engines built than just the 1952 R1 en-
gines.
For a start the R4 that was written off near Glasgow in 1961, wrongly wearing JKW 537
plates, had a Wills ring engine. George Mitchell got hold of it and fitted it to his Javelin for a
while. It also had flat-top pistons he told me. The crankcase did not have an engine number
stamped but was a Series III case, so George stamped it with the number 100/1 having seen
the logbook of the crashed R4. He thinks the case may be with Simon Wood now.
Another car with a Wills-Ring engine fitted is the saloon Jupiter PPF 746 that was owned by
Bob Graves then Roger Gambell, then John Surtees, and now owned by Kiyondo Sato.
It seems that the origins are with Alf Thomas then Peter Michael and Bob Graves. Peter Mi-
chael bought all three R4s from Alf Thomas and was a close friend and business associate
of Bob Graves, who owned the said saloon Jupiter before Roger Gambell. It appears that
Roger bought the car in 1955 and ran the car for a while with 4 Amal carburettors (with the
help of araldite it is said!!) and later fitted a supercharger and R4 bits. The car does not have
the supercharger any more but still has a subsidiary instrument to the right of the main panel
which is a vacuum/pressure gauge bearing the legend “Shorrock Supercharger”.
I wonder if anyone else has knowledge of Wills Rings engines in the outside world?
Wills Rings are still world-wide from Trelleborg Sealing Solutions Austria GmbH.
I spoke to Donal Bastow about them, he said they were too fiddly to be fitted to production
engines and had another idea, liners with a shrunk-on aluminium finned sleeve which means
that the liners and the crankcase expand in unison rather than the present arrangement
where the head gasket nip reduces slightly as the engine warms up. I believe that one of
more of these engines may have escaped into the big bad world.

By Jupiter 2014 01

[Srenner]

Hillman Imp race motors. Really very little info, but there are pictures and a few comments to be found. Also some stuff on big bore Ford motors. In pictures, the Wills Rings look quite "fat", much bigger than the grooves in the Jowett liner.

Time for some measurements? If I understand correctly, in profile, there is a ridge above the top plane of the liner while the grooves sit below. Would not the ridge stop the crush of the Wills Ring? Can't be for ring retention.

I like a good mystery!

.

[Forumadmin]

The Wills Rings are installed in the liners which have 5mm thick walls with 8.5 mm wide flange to house rings which are 1.9mm wide, 87.14mm OD and 83.27mm ID (approx).
The liner protrusion is around 25 thou but worringly there is variation (perhaps 5 thou), but it is difficult to measure with the rings installed as they protrude (perhaps 5 and upto 10 thou). A ruler can be placed across the top and bottom only to get meaningful readings. The rings are quite soft and had a couple of scratches on them which I have polished out. I certainly do not want to try to remove them.
It is going to be asking a lot of the copper/asbestos?, aly gasket to seal the water in!
The requirement on surface roughness for Wills rings is stringent.I do not think they will like the undulations and softness of a standard gasket, especially as the fire ring might impinge.

[Srenner]

Right, things start to make sense.

The rings should seal directly to the head so that the roughness of the mating surface can be controlled. Just a "paper" gasket sealing the water jacket, pushrods and oil returns.

I related to Keith that I have such an arrangement on my Bulletin 149 motor that uses nitrile o-rings to seal the bottom of the liner. In my case, the liner protrusion is fixed and exceeds the NZ head gasket requirements. Liberally smeared a sealant on the paper and no leaks. Pretty sure I used Loctite 518.

I run either a 4 or 7 lb cap; need to look.

[Keith Clements]

Whilst Scott was replying I was looking at the gaskets I have.
1. Bill Lock (copper/asbestos/aly) 78mm

2. NZ red (small) 76mm

3. NZ Yellow (large) 79 mm
No picture as it has just a bit wider hole than 1.

I have taken lots of pictures showing fit on liner and on head for each gasket type. The bore is 78 mm so the small ones (2) protrude over the liner wall, but they did not leave a gap of uncovered liner top.
But this was all to no avail as the Wills will be fitted without gasket ...so now to cut out a suitable material to seal the rest which needs to fill a gap of about 25 to 30 thou. My gut feel is something that will compress about 10 % so needs to be about .9 mm thick uncompressed. Perhaps go to 1mm with 20% compression possibility at 30 lb ft. I am sure it is possible to work out the pressure at different torques in this scenario. Remeber the block is not perfectly flat.
This also raises the issue of what torque as nearly all the load is going to be on the rings and we do not want to pull the studs out of the block?