There is obviously something wrong; but what is not obvious is what it is.
Since the last posting Amy and I have refitted the engine twice. The first time was with a recondtioned oil pump and new bearings, the second time with a reconditioned crank shaft and new bearings and the original pump. In both cases oil pressure was 50 psi at the start and dropped to 20 or 10 on idle when hot. Just getting up to 50 psi at 2500 revs.
So I am giving up with that engine as I suspect the block has a problem or possibly the cam and rockers are worn (although I would be surprised if that was the cause). Other advice given was that a gallery stop has fallen out. The case is not one made for hydraulic tappets. Anyway a post mortem will be carried out once another engine is installed.
I may set up a rig, as Pat suggests, and pump oil through it with the sump off.
I am loosing the will to live!!!
Pinch on main bearings
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Keith Clements
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Mike Allfrey
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Dear Keith,
I don't think it could be a loose (or fallen out) oil gallery plug. One interesting exercise would be to run an oil pump attached to a crankcase set without crankshaft and camshaft and having no rocker gear or filter element. The exercise would be to find out the pressure required to pump oil through the galleries.
My thoughts keep coming back to an engine I had running on the test stand when an oil feed pipe to the rocker shaft assembly broke. There was no fluctuation at the oil pressure gauge.
My intuition tells me that the problem probably lies with the oil pump. I once had a devil of a job diagnosing a problem on a tractor airconditioning system. It turned out that I had three faulty thermostatic expansion valves!!! The two new ones I tried were as bad as the original one!
Maybe it is a simple relief valve problem in your case?
Can you run the pumps with a drill with hot and cold oil?
A drill that runs at 2,000 rpm equals 4,000 engine rpm.
All the best,
Mike Allfrey.
I don't think it could be a loose (or fallen out) oil gallery plug. One interesting exercise would be to run an oil pump attached to a crankcase set without crankshaft and camshaft and having no rocker gear or filter element. The exercise would be to find out the pressure required to pump oil through the galleries.
My thoughts keep coming back to an engine I had running on the test stand when an oil feed pipe to the rocker shaft assembly broke. There was no fluctuation at the oil pressure gauge.
My intuition tells me that the problem probably lies with the oil pump. I once had a devil of a job diagnosing a problem on a tractor airconditioning system. It turned out that I had three faulty thermostatic expansion valves!!! The two new ones I tried were as bad as the original one!
Maybe it is a simple relief valve problem in your case?
Can you run the pumps with a drill with hot and cold oil?
A drill that runs at 2,000 rpm equals 4,000 engine rpm.
All the best,
Mike Allfrey.
E0 SA 42R; Rover 75
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Keith Clements
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Thanks guys. I certainly think that the only way to find out is to rig an oil pump up to the oil cooler pipe and see where the oil comes out. I am going to try another oil pressure gauge, first. The reason I do not think it could be the pump is that three rebuilds ago a totally rebuilt pump was used, two rebuilds ago the adjuster was screwed right in and the last rebuild the original pump was used.
I really must build that oil pump test bed; but now time is running out before Goodwood!
I really must build that oil pump test bed; but now time is running out before Goodwood!
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Keith Clements
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Tried another oil pressure gauge. Not that!
So now rebuilding the stalwart race engine that did 10 competitive years. A big end bearing had virtually disappeared, having squeezed itself out leaving only a 3 thou thick shim about 1 inch long. All the rest of both bearing shells was in the sump like confetti.
The bearing housing had also been worn 15 thou oval! So I have now replaced the con rod. Amazingly managed that without taking the head off or piston out! The rod and cap were balanced and polished with the others with Jen's kitchen scales. Great they are accurate to a gram.
Amy's comment the day before it went ' The car is going fast!' Well I suppose it was just run in and free.......
So now rebuilding the stalwart race engine that did 10 competitive years. A big end bearing had virtually disappeared, having squeezed itself out leaving only a 3 thou thick shim about 1 inch long. All the rest of both bearing shells was in the sump like confetti.
The bearing housing had also been worn 15 thou oval! So I have now replaced the con rod. Amazingly managed that without taking the head off or piston out! The rod and cap were balanced and polished with the others with Jen's kitchen scales. Great they are accurate to a gram.
Amy's comment the day before it went ' The car is going fast!' Well I suppose it was just run in and free.......
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Dear Keith,
Sorry, I was a bit over enthusiastic about the 200 litre drum of oil!
I made up a test rig using odd bits of 1" square tube to form a bridge to mount the oil pump on. The bridge is high enough to set the oil pump pickup 10 mm above the bottom of a plastic tub of rectangular shape that holds 5 litres of engine oil.
The oil pump bolts to a bracketr on the bridge. There is also a steel deflector welded in place to prevent the skew gear jet from reaching the ceiling and thoroughly soaking innocent bystanders. The plastic tub is situated so that the timing chain oil jet is aimed cleanly into the tub. Fine adjustment of the banjo fitting achieves this.
To drive the oil pump. a rusty distributor drive shaft was cut so that the drill's chuck could clamp onto it firmly. A large electric drill is used, in reverse and speed is gradually increased to maximun speed (2,000 rpm). While the drill is initially coming up to speed, it is loosely held to find its natural alignment, once it steadies the speed is increased.
I fabricated an adaptor to dead end the oil delivery pipe where it would normally attach to the crankcase. The adaptor has an outlet to connect to a 100 psi oil pressure gauge.
When testing a pump. if it has an adjustable relief valve, I back-off the adjuster and gradually bring it in as the test progresses. This is to avoid any chance of having a too highly set releif valve. I normally set the relief valve to 65 psi. I see no need for super high pressures, provided the oil is getting adequately to where it should.
I do not assemble an engine without giving the oil pump a lengthy test on my rig. Once the test is completed and the valve set, I place the pump into a clean plastic bag and assemble it to the engine 'wet'.
The reason I suggested a run of the pump to push the oil through the galleries without crankshaft and camshaft, was to find out what pressure is required to drive the oil through the galleries. In my experience with a large combine harvester, it took 100 psi to drive the volume (60 litres per minute) of oil the pump could produce through the system - with all control valves open but open pipes at the hydraulic rams.
I would suggest that your 10 psi could be the pressure to drive the oil past a sticking relief valve spool - i.e. straight to sump via the exhaust porting.
Your mention of the failed big end bearing also tells something sinister - like oil starvation or aeration.
We will keep thinking on this one!
Mike A.
Sorry, I was a bit over enthusiastic about the 200 litre drum of oil!
I made up a test rig using odd bits of 1" square tube to form a bridge to mount the oil pump on. The bridge is high enough to set the oil pump pickup 10 mm above the bottom of a plastic tub of rectangular shape that holds 5 litres of engine oil.
The oil pump bolts to a bracketr on the bridge. There is also a steel deflector welded in place to prevent the skew gear jet from reaching the ceiling and thoroughly soaking innocent bystanders. The plastic tub is situated so that the timing chain oil jet is aimed cleanly into the tub. Fine adjustment of the banjo fitting achieves this.
To drive the oil pump. a rusty distributor drive shaft was cut so that the drill's chuck could clamp onto it firmly. A large electric drill is used, in reverse and speed is gradually increased to maximun speed (2,000 rpm). While the drill is initially coming up to speed, it is loosely held to find its natural alignment, once it steadies the speed is increased.
I fabricated an adaptor to dead end the oil delivery pipe where it would normally attach to the crankcase. The adaptor has an outlet to connect to a 100 psi oil pressure gauge.
When testing a pump. if it has an adjustable relief valve, I back-off the adjuster and gradually bring it in as the test progresses. This is to avoid any chance of having a too highly set releif valve. I normally set the relief valve to 65 psi. I see no need for super high pressures, provided the oil is getting adequately to where it should.
I do not assemble an engine without giving the oil pump a lengthy test on my rig. Once the test is completed and the valve set, I place the pump into a clean plastic bag and assemble it to the engine 'wet'.
The reason I suggested a run of the pump to push the oil through the galleries without crankshaft and camshaft, was to find out what pressure is required to drive the oil through the galleries. In my experience with a large combine harvester, it took 100 psi to drive the volume (60 litres per minute) of oil the pump could produce through the system - with all control valves open but open pipes at the hydraulic rams.
I would suggest that your 10 psi could be the pressure to drive the oil past a sticking relief valve spool - i.e. straight to sump via the exhaust porting.
Your mention of the failed big end bearing also tells something sinister - like oil starvation or aeration.
We will keep thinking on this one!
Mike A.
E0 SA 42R; Rover 75
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Keith Clements
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The failed big end bearing was on another engine which had been in the car for ten years with no problems. Since all the other bearings were pretty good. apart from an adjacent white metal half moon thrust washer on the center main and some heat scorching on the aly tin centre main.
I checked the oil way to the big end and center main, both clear.
My diagnosis is that the bearing rotated because the tabs slipped. Possibly because of wear or perhaps because the housing was oval in the last rebuild; but that is unlikely. Since Amy had been driving the car for most of its previous hundreds of miles, I cannot be sure of all the symptoms. It could have been low oil or over heating or high revs. I do know that oil presure was low and the engine noisy; so I knew it was on the way out. It had been promised a rebuild and failed 20 miles before it would have had it! The moral is' If it making a noise , do not ignore it.'
The rod was straight and good apart from the ovality.
We will see shortly if anything else is wrong with the engine. I intend to set up the oil pressure test rig prior to replacing.
I checked the oil way to the big end and center main, both clear.
My diagnosis is that the bearing rotated because the tabs slipped. Possibly because of wear or perhaps because the housing was oval in the last rebuild; but that is unlikely. Since Amy had been driving the car for most of its previous hundreds of miles, I cannot be sure of all the symptoms. It could have been low oil or over heating or high revs. I do know that oil presure was low and the engine noisy; so I knew it was on the way out. It had been promised a rebuild and failed 20 miles before it would have had it! The moral is' If it making a noise , do not ignore it.'
The rod was straight and good apart from the ovality.
We will see shortly if anything else is wrong with the engine. I intend to set up the oil pressure test rig prior to replacing.
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Keith Clements
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We now have two threads here as I am working on two engines!
The Jup engine had new crank and bearings fitted, all seemed to be going well; but as Mike suggested 'What caused the big end failure?'. Well close inspection showed a crack around the front lower tie bolt boss housing. So my diagnosis is that the front main pinch was relaxed allowing oil to flow out easily; and, since the oil feed to the failed big end comes off that front main, lack of oil caused the failure! Now I have to find a good welder.
The Jav was raised on ramps so that I could start to investigate the loss of oil pressure. Sump off, screwed pressure relief valve in and retested. Pressure up to 75 psi for about 30secs , dropped to 50 psi, then down to 10 or 20 on idle and back up to 50 at 3000rpm. The pressure fluctuated about 20psi sometimes when at revs.
Sump off and put an old non adjustable pick up assembly on. This also had a wide mesh (3mm) gauze on it as apposed to the (.5mm) of the one replaced. Pressure up to 50 psi at start, then down to 10 or 20 on idle and back up to 50 at 3000rpm.
Now looking at building an external oil pump to feed engine with sump off. think I will take out the oil pump gear wheel; fit a modified pick up body with a hose on it connected to the other oil pump driven by an electric motor.
Need to find a method to collect all the oil!
The Jup engine had new crank and bearings fitted, all seemed to be going well; but as Mike suggested 'What caused the big end failure?'. Well close inspection showed a crack around the front lower tie bolt boss housing. So my diagnosis is that the front main pinch was relaxed allowing oil to flow out easily; and, since the oil feed to the failed big end comes off that front main, lack of oil caused the failure! Now I have to find a good welder.
The Jav was raised on ramps so that I could start to investigate the loss of oil pressure. Sump off, screwed pressure relief valve in and retested. Pressure up to 75 psi for about 30secs , dropped to 50 psi, then down to 10 or 20 on idle and back up to 50 at 3000rpm. The pressure fluctuated about 20psi sometimes when at revs.
Sump off and put an old non adjustable pick up assembly on. This also had a wide mesh (3mm) gauze on it as apposed to the (.5mm) of the one replaced. Pressure up to 50 psi at start, then down to 10 or 20 on idle and back up to 50 at 3000rpm.
Now looking at building an external oil pump to feed engine with sump off. think I will take out the oil pump gear wheel; fit a modified pick up body with a hose on it connected to the other oil pump driven by an electric motor.
Need to find a method to collect all the oil!
Last edited by Keith Clements on Tue Jul 24, 2007 11:01 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Drummond Black
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OIL PRESSURE
I may be covering old ground here, however, I always check the following :-
1. The oil pump base and pressure relief piston
If you remove the small piston ( or plunger ) and carefully check the O/D. This must be smooth and polished all the way round. If an eliptical pattern appears on any of the surface then the piston is guilty of jamming open. The bore in the oil pump base will more than likely be worn also causing the piston to jam in the open position. Polishing the piston with emery sometimes acts as a temporary measure but the safe way it to replace base and piston or ream out the bore and fit an oversise piston.
2. Next area to check is the oil feed banjo washers inside the rocker covers. I have had heavy oil pressure drop from severe leaks in this area.
3. What rear main bearing have you fitted. White metal or lead idium with thrust washers ??
Interested to know results of above
Drummond
1. The oil pump base and pressure relief piston
If you remove the small piston ( or plunger ) and carefully check the O/D. This must be smooth and polished all the way round. If an eliptical pattern appears on any of the surface then the piston is guilty of jamming open. The bore in the oil pump base will more than likely be worn also causing the piston to jam in the open position. Polishing the piston with emery sometimes acts as a temporary measure but the safe way it to replace base and piston or ream out the bore and fit an oversise piston.
2. Next area to check is the oil feed banjo washers inside the rocker covers. I have had heavy oil pressure drop from severe leaks in this area.
3. What rear main bearing have you fitted. White metal or lead idium with thrust washers ??
Interested to know results of above
Drummond
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Leo Bolter
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Drummond you said:
and you also said:
NEVER use fibre washers under any of the banjos (as found in some gasket sets of years gone by) . . . or anywhere else I believe. They can and do pop out under the pressure of tightening the bolts down (even to the right torque!) when, if noticed they must be replaced . . . or worse still, if they are not noticed . . well you get the picture I guess! Use aluminium or copper washers instead.
Hear! Hear! . . . I heartily agree. A poor design for a relief valve having a port hole on one side of the bore! But then I suppose the plungers have lasted a fairly good while, I guess the warrantee period has well and truely passed!If an eliptical pattern appears on any of the surface then the piston is guilty of jamming open. The bore in the oil pump base will more than likely be worn also causing the piston to jam in the open position . . . . but the safe way it to replace base and piston or ream out the bore and fit an oversise piston.
and you also said:
Uncle Leo says:':D'Next area to check is the oil feed banjo washers inside the rocker covers.
NEVER use fibre washers under any of the banjos (as found in some gasket sets of years gone by) . . . or anywhere else I believe. They can and do pop out under the pressure of tightening the bolts down (even to the right torque!) when, if noticed they must be replaced . . . or worse still, if they are not noticed . . well you get the picture I guess! Use aluminium or copper washers instead.
R. Leo Bolter,
Palmerston North,
New Zealand.
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Car: Jupiter (E1-SA-513-R)
Skype name = jupiter1951
Messenger name = r.l.bolter"at"massey.ac.nz
Palmerston North,
New Zealand.
JCC of NZ - Member No 0741.
JOAC - Member No 0161
Car: Jupiter (E1-SA-513-R)
Skype name = jupiter1951
Messenger name = r.l.bolter"at"massey.ac.nz
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Keith Clements
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Pat,
I do not have a grease gun that will do what you say, which is why I am planning to feed the oil using an oil pump.
Copper washers are used; and yes I will check the rocker feed drip.
Drummond,
Note that a completely overhauled pump had previously been fitted. but that may not prove anything, if Mike is right!
Three different oil pressure relief valves and bodies have been tried!
Regarding bearings in Jav, we are now on the third set. Currently there is a new crank with full aly without seperate thrust. Prior to that it was lead indium plus white metal rear. Lead indium big ends. Note the rear main on first removal had overheated and flowed. Second removal the new bearings had some wear suggesting tightness or lack of oil; but only 10 miles had been covered plus garage running in.
I do not have a grease gun that will do what you say, which is why I am planning to feed the oil using an oil pump.
Leo,I will take out the oil pump gear wheel; fit a modified pick up body with a hose on it connected to the other oil pump driven by an electric motor.
Copper washers are used; and yes I will check the rocker feed drip.
Drummond,
Note that a completely overhauled pump had previously been fitted. but that may not prove anything, if Mike is right!
Three different oil pressure relief valves and bodies have been tried!
Regarding bearings in Jav, we are now on the third set. Currently there is a new crank with full aly without seperate thrust. Prior to that it was lead indium plus white metal rear. Lead indium big ends. Note the rear main on first removal had overheated and flowed. Second removal the new bearings had some wear suggesting tightness or lack of oil; but only 10 miles had been covered plus garage running in.
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Keith Clements
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Taken Pat's advice and found a suitable grease gun, filled with a litre of oil and squirted into oil pressure pipe hole. There was no resistance and oil ran out of the four nearside cam follower holes and seemed to come also from the three main bearings (although it could have run down from the camshaft bearings). No oil was seen coming from the timing chain area or pump or the other four cam followers.
So is it a worn camshaft and follower casing?
Or do I just need more pressure or flow to see if it will hold 75psi?
Or am I just going to get covered in oil?
So is it a worn camshaft and follower casing?
Or do I just need more pressure or flow to see if it will hold 75psi?
Or am I just going to get covered in oil?
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Keith Clements
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Spent the day building and testing an oil pump test rig.
Cleaned out a sump, took an old desk leg which was 3 by 1 inch box section, drilled and tapped two holes to bolt across sump, drilled and tapped three holes to support pump, drilled and tapped one hole to fit deflector for timing chain spray. Made deflector from 4x3 inch sheet of aly.
https://jowettnet/forum/download/file.p ... &mode=view
Cleaned out a sump, took an old desk leg which was 3 by 1 inch box section, drilled and tapped two holes to bolt across sump, drilled and tapped three holes to support pump, drilled and tapped one hole to fit deflector for timing chain spray. Made deflector from 4x3 inch sheet of aly.
https://jowettnet/forum/download/file.p ... &mode=view
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Leo Bolter
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Hi Keith (and all the other contributors)
You are all men after my own heart! . . . . you’ve used a practical approach to solve this quandary (and quite possibly, other people’s as well).
I think between you you’ve done a great job of gathering together the suggestions on this thread so as to “practicallyâ€
You are all men after my own heart! . . . . you’ve used a practical approach to solve this quandary (and quite possibly, other people’s as well).
I think between you you’ve done a great job of gathering together the suggestions on this thread so as to “practicallyâ€
Last edited by Leo Bolter on Wed Jan 13, 2010 9:24 am, edited 7 times in total.
R. Leo Bolter,
Palmerston North,
New Zealand.
JCC of NZ - Member No 0741.
JOAC - Member No 0161
Car: Jupiter (E1-SA-513-R)
Skype name = jupiter1951
Messenger name = r.l.bolter"at"massey.ac.nz
Palmerston North,
New Zealand.
JCC of NZ - Member No 0741.
JOAC - Member No 0161
Car: Jupiter (E1-SA-513-R)
Skype name = jupiter1951
Messenger name = r.l.bolter"at"massey.ac.nz
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Keith Clements
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Taken out for a test run (5 miles). Pressure is 60psi 2000 rpm and 50 psi idle warm, and 50psi 2000rpm and 20 psi idle when hot.
I am reasonably happy with that; although I would have expected to get up to 75psi which is what the pump is set at.
So what did I do? Well the oil pump was changed again and I changed the camshaft; but on inspection there really was no wear on it.
My explanation of the lower oil pressure is perhaps Ben Shaw may have modified the block for greater oil flow as he always said that flow was more important than pressure. I doubt if the followers are worn; as they seemed tight in the bores when I rebuilt it. I did not check this time.
So in conclusion the original lack of pressure was the usual rear main white metal failure. A little bit of wear (3 thou) on the original crank would have lost some pressure which new bearings did not fix.
I may check the rocker assembly as this might also loose 10psi. It would be really interesting to work out the percentage oil delivered to each component as obviously balance is important. If just one is taking more than it should it will starve some of the other components.
It is complex as the the galleries are different sizes and have different resistances and constrictions.
I am reasonably happy with that; although I would have expected to get up to 75psi which is what the pump is set at.
So what did I do? Well the oil pump was changed again and I changed the camshaft; but on inspection there really was no wear on it.
My explanation of the lower oil pressure is perhaps Ben Shaw may have modified the block for greater oil flow as he always said that flow was more important than pressure. I doubt if the followers are worn; as they seemed tight in the bores when I rebuilt it. I did not check this time.
So in conclusion the original lack of pressure was the usual rear main white metal failure. A little bit of wear (3 thou) on the original crank would have lost some pressure which new bearings did not fix.
I may check the rocker assembly as this might also loose 10psi. It would be really interesting to work out the percentage oil delivered to each component as obviously balance is important. If just one is taking more than it should it will starve some of the other components.
It is complex as the the galleries are different sizes and have different resistances and constrictions.
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