Steering adjustment

[ChrisE]

Please can someone explain how to adjust the steering on a 1929 Long Four? There is a lot of slop/backlash between the steering wheel and the road-wheels so that as I drive along I’m constantly moving the steering wheel left-right-left-right

I’m away for a week but want to tighten it all up when I get home

Thanks
Chris

[Tony Fearn]

Hello Chris.
Try a search in Pre-war for Shackle wear.
Is your steering box similar to the types in the photo in the discussion?
Tony.

[BarryCambs]

Hi Chris

My long two was actually dangerous to drive when I got it. Transpired to be a combination of everything, but if the ball joints are ok, check the rubber bush that mounts the steering box to the chassis (assuming it's the same set up as mine). It had pretty much disintegrated and what looked like play in the box at first glance, was in fact the box itself moving about. I remade the bush out of polyurethane turned up on the lathe

Barry

[Tony Fearn]

Hi Chris.
Hope you're back safely.
Here's a scan that may be of help, but it's from the early 30's box.
After you've perused it, there may be other suggestions that could be made.
Is your box held to the cross tube with a couple of flanges rather than a Metalastic bush?

Tony.

[ChrisE]

Hi Tony,

Thank you for that. it’s really useful. I think mine is the same as the diagram you posted. I took a video of it you can see here;

https://photos.app.goo.gl/AQ2obz3gHGctVVFZ8

It shows there is loads of backlash in the steering box which I presume is wear in the ‘gears’. My problem is that if I take it off to be ‘fixed’ that will put me off the road for a while, not least until I can find someone to re-make the parts. Do you know if JC-Spares are likely to have anything to help, whether that is new internal bits or a replacement one that that I can get refurbished? I’ve not checked the trackrod ends yet because I’m injured form a bike crash (don’t ask!) but they didn’t seem to move when I rock the steering. I’m sure that the steering box problem will fix 90% of it if not 100%.

Chris

[Tony Fearn]

Hi Chris, and thanks for the video.
From what I can see, the box doesn't seem to have the rubber mounting bush that Barry talks about.
Still, following the instructions as how to tighten the gear on the end of the column by turning the steady tube is something you can do without removing the box from the car.
Put a dab of Tippex on top of the tube where it goes into the body of the box, let it dry and then draw a line on it.
This will show how to put it back to original if needed.
Just loosen the clamp bolt which shows on your video and turn the steady tube bit by bit (one way or the other) until it lessens the play on the steering wheel.
If you can't turn it using both hands (get rid of oil or grease on the outside), perhaps you could 'persuade' it to loosen with a Stilson wrench, or hammer a large flat headed screwdriver where the clamp bolt goes through and lever the gap apart.

There is a slight chance that the eccentric brass bushes are worn in the steady tube. If this is so, a closer mesh may not be possible.
Don't forget to tighten the clamp bolt again.

If your box has a large nut holding the top to the bottom, then remove the split pin and see if you can tighten the nut by one or more split pin grooves. Don't compress the spring entirely. Replace with a new split pin.

If the brass bushes actually inside the box are worn, then all the above won't help and you'll have to remove the box and have it re-furbished.

Before you go down this road, ring JCS on the Monday they are at Spares and Paul or someone will help you.

I hope you had a look at all the posts in the pre-war shackle saga I suggested.

Tony.

[ChrisE]

Hi Tony,

I did look at the archive article and I’ll post about that separately on the forum.

On your advice I tried the following, hopefully correctly doing what you said;

I marked the fixed tube with Tipex so that I had a point of reference;





I then slackened off the bolt, see

https://photos.app.goo.gl/ewczkEAqj82L1uja6

I attached a tube clip to the fixed tube to give me some grip and the tube rotated relatively easily.



I turned the tube anticlockwise (when looking from the drivers seat) about 1/8 of a turn and tried the wheel to see the backlash. It seemed to make no difference. You can see the Tipex mark. See

https://photos.app.goo.gl/PMQC82A3BmL9BNNr9

I then turned the tube clockwise back past the ‘zero’ point and to about ¼ turn beyond that. Again it seemed to make no difference. See

https://photos.app.goo.gl/CwALyMLa5y7yZQQM6

So all in all, any amount of turning seemed to make no difference at all? Looking from the outside it does look like the box is not adjustable and that the inside has just worn?
Below are a few more photos of the box in case anyone has knowledge of an identical box? It does look too like there is a lot of worn grease coming out of the box.










Any next thoughts? Chris

[Tony Fearn]

Hello again Chris.
The videos are really good, and one can see exactly what the problem is.
Whilst I was looking at one of them, a thought came into my head.
Now this is only a hypothesis, and a second opinion would be welcome, (or even a third, fourth etc.), and I don't mind being told it's not the case.
Nevertheless, if the thicker part of the eccentric bush is at the top, where the clamp bolt is, then the teeth on the end of the column will be less in mesh with the gear ring.
This being so, is it possible that the whole steady tube needs turning through 180 degrees or thereabouts.
This would bring the thicker part of the eccentric bush towards the bottom thereby pushing the teeth on the end of the column more in mesh.
Of course as we've discussed previously, it maybe wear on the bushes that's giving the problem.
Your steering box is not the same as the one on my '33 and '34 Jowetts. Below is a scan of my type from a Jowett publication, although it mirrors the scan I posted earlier in the discussion.

.

I have heard that if a spring behind the inner bush on either end of the steering drop arm, or tie rod has broken, then this can affect the steering.
This has never happened to me....yet.
You seem to have ruled that out, but in case you haven't yet dismantled them to check, I've added another scan below which might help.

Cheers,
Tony.

[ChrisE]

Cheers Tony,
I like to post up videos and photos as I think they sow so much more than words can. Hopefully too they help other people with similar problems now and in the future.

I managed to get a spare box through Jowett Club Spares (what a wonderful resource they are). It wasn’t on the shelf but they knew a guy, who knew a guy who had one and I bought it though the club.

My aim today (Sat 30/9/23) is to swap the entire box and see if that fixes it. It does seem like the box is worn and slopping all over the place.

Are the shims 3122 on your diagram? I’m still not sure I understand how they work or rather how turning the fixed tub ever changes things?

Chris

[ChrisE]

So here is my update.
It was really easy to take off the old steeling box and the steering wheel and column. As always with these things it is far more simple to understand everything when it’s pulled apart!
It seems my steeling box gears and probably those on the end of the steeling shaft are worn beyond adjustment. The worst is where the wheels face forward which is I suppose where the car drives most of the time and explains why it steers like a boat when trying to drive down a straight road! The eccentric bush in the tube is now obvious (now it’s cleaned up) and there is I think a drill hole to show where the ‘top’ is after which you’ve ran out of adjustability. It makes the steeling column engage more tightly into the box-gear by simply lifting it up about 2 or 3 mm at the maximum. It’s a very simple but ingenious idea by Jowett-1929.

You can see from the videos below that the box has a fair bit of ‘slop’ in it too between the two rotating parts; that too will contribute to make the wheels ‘waggle’. This is the box on the bench when all the grease is cleaned out.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/R4LRnREe7LPbnK18A
https://photos.app.goo.gl/rgykhi4uaKKJRmRC9
https://photos.app.goo.gl/jCHWomsALwiPfrZUA

The solution is that I got a replacement box from Jowett Spares and have put that on. It is worn, and the tube has been rotated so this is the maximum adjustment. It’s better than the original one but probably not a long term answer. I think that lays with getting someone to re-machine the old one, and a replacement column so that it’s tight and has all the adjustment for future years. I’d like to get a spare column if anyone knows where there is one as they will be made-matched and it means I’ll not be off the road while it takes place. Of course I’m paranoid about giving parts to any engineering firm in case anything happens to it too which would be a disaster.

I’ve posted all the photos below, in no order but in a hope that it explains or perhaps is useful to anyone else who is wrestling with a similar problem.

Chris

[BarryCambs]

Hi Chris

I know Daniel Bangham had his repaired using Hard Chroming, but I can't remember the firm that did it.

Barry

[Dhbangham]

Hi Chris, My experience of the adjusting the steering box can be found here viewtopic.php?p=21450#p21450
In summary, my slop was a combination of small amounts of wear to every part of the mechanism. The one bit I did not attempt to fix was the weakest link in the chain, which is the rather small geared pinion on the end of the steering rod. I still don't have a horizantal milling machine or hob cutter to make a new one.

[ChrisE]

Hi Daniel,

I had not seen that post but have just read it with interest. You parts look identical to mine.

I need to find someone who can add a bit of ‘meat’ onto the metal of the box so that I can get the gear re-cut and make the three moving parts of the box a snug fit too. How much thickness does hard chroming add? I might need as much as 1.0mm adding which is obviously a lot. I’ve never had any chroming done however a quick Google search seems to suggest that the maximum you can add is less than a hundredth of that. Any ideas?

Chris