Getting it back on the road.

[Keith Clements]

Nigel Hicks wants to get his car back on the road and has asked for help.

Thanks for your reply.

I have taken a look at the Early Javelin Rebuild, and seeing how many items need attention reinforces my feeling that sorting my Javelin out is something that I would like someone else to take care of ! Where is the Rebuild taking place?



My Javelin is mobile in the sense that most parts are still in place, and it can easily be pushed out of the garage onto the drive for free access to all areas.

It last passed its MoT test in 2007, and has problems with exhaust valves, water pump and dynamo (at least).



It would be great if you could find the time to come and have a look at it, and give your expert opinion.

I am in Milton Keynes, and I am around most weekends.

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This is my response.
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I suggest we carry on this conversation on Jowetttalk as it will be of benefit to others.

We are currently rebuilding a Jav at my house. Please come and visit.

What are the problems you have with exhaust valves?

I suggest you take off water pump and ask John Airey if he can rebuild. Otherwise ask JCS to supply parts or a rebuilt one.

I suggest you swap to an alternator but if not take the dynamo off and get it checked out locally. Fit a new battery. Drain petrol and flush out with new petrol by using the pump manually. Check you are getting a spark, and try firing up with good petrol in the carbs. Worth taking of the filter bowls and cleaning.


Then when the engine is going check out the brakes and all the electrics.

[NigelHicks]

Thanks for inviting me to share my experiences with "getting it back on the road" !

Here are a couple of pictures:

IMG_0387pp.jpg

IMG_0389pp.jpg

As for the question about the exhaust valves, the trouble here is that a couple of them stick in the open position after the engine has warmed up. Then of course the power disappears and the engine sounds very unhappy. After the engine has cooled down I can persuade the valves to return to their normal positions, but then the whole sorry cycle repeats itself if I try to start the engine up again.

[robert lintott]

Sticking exhaust valves can arise from several causes.
1. weak or broken valve springs . if the latter it may be visible if the valve cover is removed . weak springs can be tested against a new one --end to end ---in a large vice wind the handle and see if they both compress equally , if not one is weak . this means head off and dismantled anyway so replace the springs if JCS can supply?

2. possibly slightly bent valve stems, OK when cold but expansion on heating can cause the stem to bind in the guide. also could be excessive carbon deposits fouling the guide or other damage to the guide?

3. could there be a problem with the push rod , has it jumped out of an end socket?

4. seized rocker arm bearings , lack of oil ?

5, Camshaft damage/fracture ,if the two valves are the two rear exhausts ( one each side) the end of the shaft could be damaged , holding the valves open?

good hunting Bob

[NigelHicks]

Hello Bob,

Thanks for your numerous suggestions about the causes of the sticking valves:
1. Possible
2. Possible
3. Unlikely - the valves operate OK when cold, and the tappet gaps are good
4. Possible, if they seize when they get hot
5. Unlikely, the valves operate OK when cold.

So that gives 3 Possibles and 2 Unlikelies to investigate!

Nigel

[NigelHicks]

My original message to JCC which preceded this forum thread was more about getting the car fixed up rather than fixing it myself:

Although I am happy to do maintenance work, I have neither the time nor the experience to undertake restoration and major repair work (not to mention a shortage of space in the garage).

The kind of help I would like is:
- Assess the condition of the car and define the work that needs to be done to make it roadworthy.
- Identify companies (or individuals) who could carry out the work and who are recommended by JCC members.
- Make a ballpark estimate of the cost to return the car to the road.

Any help with this from readers of this would be appreciated !

Nigel

[paul wilks]

Nigel

II sympathise fully! My Javelin was 'off the road' for 34years (I thought it was a record but apparently not!). A family and other things intervened and it was put on hold until my retirement. My particular sticking point was brakes- or rather, lack of any- despite new pipes, wheel cylinders, shoes, master cylinder. BUT, and I think this is the important part, I maintained my interest through the club, attended rallies etc and was ‘collared’ by one of my old friends (I use the expression “old” loosely- it was Tim Brown actually). He asked when I was going to get the Javelin back on the road. I explained my predicament and he suggested I try the local ‘adopted’ Jowett garage in Congleton, Cheshire. I got the Javelin to the said garage and the proprietor, a real enthusiast, got to work, got the engine running properly after draining the petrol tank and importantly got the brakes working properly and even more importantly got her through an MOT. Result!

My mechanical/technical knowledge is limited too but I have found the club to be an excellent support. Perhaps if you attend the section meetings in your area you might discover a local garage not too far from you who could help get your very attractive Javelin back on the road.

Good luck.

[Jack]

We met Nigel at the Bletchley Park event this weekend, and had a chat about getting his car back on the road.

Currently we have a provisional date of 21st July to drop in and get a good look at things, meeting at lunchtime and hopefully a sunny afternoon of trying to find the problems and fix them. Are there any other members who can come along and lend a hand? It looks a lot like two or three minor problems to be fixed, so may well be a case of many hands making light work with this.

Please PM me if you can make it, to have another Javelin back on the road after a few years rest would be great for the summer and help out a club member, and feel free to come along and learn a bit about engines. Nigel has promised to provide tea and biscuits, status of chocolate on hobnobs to be determined by the weather

Jack.

[Jack]

Couldn't be much more topical, I just found this photo online.

http://www.flickr.com/photos/21640011@N ... otostream/



One for the history file if you'd not got it already Nigel. Taken at the JCC Rally in Paignton 1985.

Jack.

[Nick Webster]

And I took the photo! I was going to post it to the forum but wasn't too sure how to attach a picture, or indeed whether there was a limitation on doing so. Anyway, IT issues aside, I'd just like to register a vote for the attractive colour of this car. I'm pretty sure there are not too many like this around, now that Maroon seems to have become the fashionable colour. I've always liked this ever since I stumbled across a similar example in a scrap yard in the 60s. Bodily it was fine. and I'll bet there wasn't much wrong mechanically that could'nt have been sorted, but I was only 14 at the time and my father couldn't be persuaded to rescue it. Is this metallic turquoise or bottle green?

p.s. a few more 80s Jowett pictures in my Flickr (Faded Image) photostream.

Nick

[robert lintott]

NXR 292 was in the 2008 register with a different owner name , and shown as " Green"--not much help ! Shown as E2PE 23293D , but being registered in June 1953 , as with some others in the list it could have been an E3 not E2.? What is on the Brass plate and /or green log book/V5? I hope you get it going doesnt sound too serious ! Bob

[robert lintott]

Apologies , I confused the photographer with the owner, the latter remains as in the 2008 register Bob

[Jack]

Well, what a day. It started with the sale of the Bedford motorhome at 10am, a quite unexpected sale on the basis it was only advertised through friends and family, but is now going to a couple of guys who seem keen on putting it back on the road and have a barn to put it in while they do it.

Once that was all done, we hit the road to Milton Keynes to go and see this car we've heard so much about.

Step one was diagnosis of the engine issues. No point working on a dynamo or voltage regulator for an engine that won't start! We turned it over by hand, with rocker covers off, to see what the valves were doing. One inlet valve was very sluggish, but was returning, and on the other side one inlet was doing all kinds of weird stuff, including the pushrod springing back out and trapping Keith's finger. Entertaining, but baffling.

Quick diagnosis was that the heads needed to come off, and that access where it was would prevent that. So engine had to come out. We managed to remove the various components and disconnect everything fairly easily, with one or two exceptions. The throttle cable was well and truly jammed, requiring half an hour of persuasion to remove, and the blocked taps on the heads meant quite a lot of coolant needed catching to get the various radiator bits disconnected.

Once it was out we went to work on removing the heads. This ended up being another very involved task, requiring application of big hammer and lots of persuasion. Finally, at 6pm, we called it a day with two heads removed and the car back in the garage waiting for our return.

We are hoping to get the car back on the road before the Titsey Hill run in August, which is ambitious, but once the heads go back on there is every chance that it will fire up, hopefully the dynamo issue is not to severe, and the water pump issue is hopefully fixable. The car is definitely an interesting one, the colour aside, because it has all kinds of very sensible modifications to improve the electrical system and overall running. There is very little that needs doing outside of this, so fingers crossed for a quick resolution and Nigel can be back on the road enjoying the car again.

Hopefully a few members can come along for the refitting/fixing session, date TBC but it was a very rewarding day rounded off with the aquisition of a very energetic kitten that has so far managed to attack Keith and demonstrated itself to be braver than the 7kg cat we already have. This could be an entertaining addition to the house.

Jack.

[Forumadmin]

The reason for the bent push rod is quite amazing. My theory as to what has happened is as follows...

The valve cotters and springs were removed on one head but the inlet valves were well and truly stuck. One just moved with application of a light hammer but the other required some hefty blows with a 7lb club. The stems were covered in a black/brown sticky goo which looked like the gum which is a residue of petrol. Removal of this gum with the valve guide cleaning arbour and cleaning of the stem with the wire wheel eventually allowed the valve to be slid down the guide. It did take some cleaning. I would recommend the substance as glue! Note this was not the carbon residue normal with inlet tracts, so my theory is that petrol has been seeping into the valve guides and as the car has not much been used such residue has not been burnt off. The goo also rested at the bottom of the combustion chamber suggesting a slight leak past the valve. So the bent push rod just gave up trying to move an immovable valve. So a word of warning. When taking a car out after a period of more than 3 months idleness, I suggest carefully turning over the engine on the handle and stopping if there is more than compression resistance. Perhaps worth checking valve movement by taking off the rocker covers.

The usual sticking valve is the exhaust which rusts up open and this might hole the piston. This is the first time I have seen a stuck valve when closed.

2013-07-30 16.00.18.jpg

2013-07-30 16.01.01.jpg

2013-07-30 16.21.08.jpg

The next task is to clean the water ways with a 1/4" drill.

[robert lintott]

What you have found is interesting . The waterways suggest some overheating of the Heads has been occurring , is it possible to do a cold or hot acid clean , a drill will only go so far.?

I wonder if the "glue" is petrol or oil? Once the car is standing , in this case for 6 years there is only a bowl full of fuel each side which is unlikely to produce all the goo you have found ? Another possibility is excess oil supply to the valve gear which accumulates in the bottom of the valve cover where the valves are located . Javelins have no rubber seals on the stems and every time it starts this excess oil can be sucked into the inlet valve guides , building up a deposit of oil residue. If left standing this could set in the way you found

My own Javelin gets only occasional use and often when started there is a large cloud of smoke which I assume is from oil coming down the inlet valve stems .

Is the problem on both heads or just one ? It may be worn valve guides ? Or perhaps excessive oil to the valve gear ? Either way more regular use will probably cure the problem .

However it is good advice to be careful with an engine which has been OOS for a long time

[Jack]

Since I had a quiet evening with Amy and Keith out and about in town, I thought I'd go and have a look at the other head.

I can confirm that the black nasty gunk is on both heads, and is probably causing the very weary valve returning. It is also stuck to a plate on top of the head which has clearly leaked from the carb. As a result I suspect petrol has caused this, but the sheer quantity of gunk suggests it does not take a lot of fuel to create this much gunk - depends on the fuel I suppose.

The lighter coloured blockages that can be seen in the waterways are rock hard, and there was similar in the other head, which I was able to remove with a pick. No idea what that is, my first guess was silicon from trying to seal hoses etc but it was way too hard for that.

Also non-standard on the car is an aluminium plate fitted to the top of the heads, presumably as a heat shield to keep the heat off the carbs. Never seen this before, it may prevent efficient cooling at the heads but could prevent vapourising at the carbs and keep the engine running better in colder temperatures perhaps. It is certainly a neat modification, only other reason I can see is that in combination with a rubber guard they could prevent water getting to the plugs if the aluminium is reasonably sealed to the head - it looks to be riveted in place so perhaps it will be.

An interesting car, regardless of what else we find along the way. All this gunk does possibly also explain the serious difficulty we had removing the offside head, which was well and truly stuck, I suspect that around the cylinders was what held it in place so effectively.

Jack.