Sticky Valve

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StevenGray
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:39 pm
Your interest in the forum: Jowett Bradford 1948 "CB" Model
Given Name: Steven
Location: West Midlands

Sticky Valve

Post by StevenGray »

Over the last 18 moths my CB Bradford had started to develop the habit of staring on one cylinder before clearing and running on both sometimes needing the spark plug on no 2 cyl removing and cleaning.
Then one day no compression on said cylinder, Out with the spanners and off with the valve covers to find that the exhaust valve was stuck open, a flick with a screwdriver and the valve sprung back and it was up and running again, this became more frequent as time went by until a flick with the screwdriver no longer worked. Turning the valve with a spanner released the valve and away again.Having been unable to devote the time need to investigate and cure the problem, it was inevitable that it would finally fail and force me into sorting it.
The day finally came, I need to make a trip to our local Houshold Waste Recycing Centre, a trip that the Bradford makes more frequently after changes meant that taking a trailer needed an appointment and was practically imposible if you worked a normal 8 hr day, it was cold windy day with the wind blowing from the North onto my north facing drive, when the valve was completely stuck.
Off came the inlet manifold to reveal (as i suspected ) the manifold gasket was leaking water into the inlet, this had never been enough to emulsify with the oil or cause a hydraulic lock on the cylinder, more I feel as a weep through the gasket which is a cork type of material about 3mm thick, supposidley compatable with the fluids that it comes into contact with
The gasket after removal. the middle section crumbled away to nothing
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The cylinder head was then removed and the cylinder unbolted and removed , a bit of a fiddle but it does come off, the plate on the inner wing needs to be removed if it is still fitted.

The cylinder on the bench with the valve stuck
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Surface corrosion can be seen on the inlet valve and the surrounding area

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The valve after removal with little evidence of the cause of the problem.
There was a build of fine rust on the last 10mm of the valve guide, you may be able to make out the brown on the valve guide.
This was cleaned out with a reamer the deposits on the valve were cleaned off and then polished up in a lathe

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The above photo shows the cylinder after its inital scraping to clean of the surface, what is left showing is the rusty pitted surface around the exhaust valve area, as with most rust build up it looks much worse that it actually is

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The cylinder head shows some light rusting but no pitting

The same thing after about 30 secs of work with a small grindstone in a dremmel
Note the condition of the exhaust valve seat
The engine was still running before the valve finally stuck , although on my last trip it certainlly was not right at all

Image

Although the valve seat looks bad, again it was mainly rust pitting and quick regind with a seat cutter and the seat was restored to good condition,
The valve and seat were lapped back to one another again using a battery drill as the driver
The inlet valve was also re-lapped but required little attenion to achieve a good contact line

Inspection of the flange faces on the manifold revealed further corrosion with virtualy no material left between the inlet and water pipes right at the end.
Repairs had been effected previously in this area but further corrosion had taken place.
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The manifold was set up on the milling machine and the flange faces skimmed to get at least a continuious face for the gasket to seat against.
Approximatly 2mm of material was removed to clean up the faces and bring them onto the same plane as one another.
both flanges were lower on their inside edges.This is realy a temporary solution, the maninfold will need welding up and remachining again fairly soon I feel.
Everthing was reassembled and the engine now runs much better than it has done for some time.
In fact it now ticks over slower and smother than it has done in the 40+ years that I have been it keeper.
It had always had a hick-up before which upset the tickover.
It has now been 5 weeks since this repair and everthing is still working well, with the engine running on both cylinders every time it is stared

I am puzzled by fact that if this problem has been caused by water leaksge from the manifold joint, why was there no corrosion on the inlet valve and seat also there was no trace line of rust showing where water had run down.
There was slight emulsification of the oil that was in the barrel but little other evidence.
The corrosion also took place it the upper area of the combustion space well away from where the water would have run to.
Maybe that time will present a different answer if some thing else presents itself.
The whole job took around five hours

Steve Gray
Bradford Owner since 1971
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Re: Sticky Valve

Post by Forumadmin »

Inlet valves are coated with the oils in the petrol and with oil sucked down the shaft of the valve stem. Exhaust valves are hot and thus have all oil burnt off. The water vapour from the leak would condense on this degreased area and rust it when the engine was cold. The steam also acts as a powerful cleaner and this fact can be used to verify which cylinder has a gasket problem with a boroscope or endoscope wher the top of the piston wil be cleaner. Unless other factors such as worn bores or valve guides are gumming up the works.
george garside
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Re: Sticky Valve

Post by george garside »

the factory recommended the cure for dry exhause valve stem on CA & CB was to fit an INLET tappet guide to the exhause tappet with the oil feed hole to the bottom.

For what its worth when doing normal 12/15000 per year sort of mileage I always used redex in the petrol and also a squirt of engine oil weekly into each vale spring /tappet cover tube.

george
PAUL BEAUMONT
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Re: Sticky Valve

Post by PAUL BEAUMONT »

By observation this was either never a major problem or Jowett's expected it to be epidemic. JCS has literally hundreds of CB inlet manifold gaskets which are original Jowett Cars stock!!
Paul Beaumont
Keith Clements
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Re: Sticky Valve

Post by Keith Clements »

Or somebody wrongly added a zero to an order or they were ordered in boxes of ten or a dozen and did not realise! :D
skype = keithaclements ;
PAUL BEAUMONT
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Re: Sticky Valve

Post by PAUL BEAUMONT »

Good point, but as it was in the pre-computer era I reckon unlikely!!!! :)
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Peter Holden
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Re: Sticky Valve

Post by Peter Holden »

When life was controlled by common sense and a degree of intelligence.

Not by computer software companies.
george garside
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Re: Sticky Valve

Post by george garside »

like being able to advance or retard your own ignition and adjust the mixture whilst in motion, a practice that continued on motor bikes into the '50s. I made arrangements for the former on a CC bradford ( retaining the centrifugal stuff) anad being able to give a little more advance was handy whilst a bit of early retarding make it pull like a CB at around 20 mph in top.

george

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StevenGray
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Joined: Fri Mar 14, 2008 11:39 pm
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Given Name: Steven
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Re: Sticky Valve

Post by StevenGray »

george garside wrote:the factory recommended the cure for dry exhause valve stem on CA & CB was to fit an INLET tappet guide to the exhause tappet with the oil feed hole to the bottom.

For what its worth when doing normal 12/15000 per year sort of mileage I always used redex in the petrol and also a squirt of engine oil weekly into each vale spring /tappet cover tube.

george
Over the last few years I have averaged less than 1000 mpy so the valve could as you intimate have just become dry at the hot end although there was a reasonable covering of oil on most of the valve stem.
I could never see how the oil is supposed to make the leap up from the bottom of the cover onto the stem and do a good job of lubrication! most of it runs out down the ouside of the cylinders.
As I recall the original type gasket was about 1/16" thick and was of a graphited material, and was not particuralry compressable so needed the contact faces to be in good condition and in the correct attitude to one another,
As the faces on my manifold formed a shallow vee they were not in the best of condition, I have had issues with water escaping up the stud holes and causing corrosion over the years.
Maybe my manifold was a poorly machined one off.
Another possible reason for the seemingly large amount of stock gaskets is that somebody forgot to tell the buying department that they were going to change the design with the introduction of the CC and they ordered enough for a lengthy build program never to be used up.
Having used the same design over a 4/5 year period it would seem that there was little issue with the reliability, sufficent that they felt it would still be satisfactory if they changed the bolting pattern from rectangular to triangular,
which would appear to be a poorer method, or was there something else differnt about the CC manifold and they wanted to prevent them being interchangeable.
Further indication can of course be gained by the number of gaskets sold by JCS, although as they are easily made from suitable gasket materials maybe not.

Steve
Bradford Owner since 1971
george garside
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Re: Sticky Valve

Post by george garside »

As has been mentioned/debated on here in the past Roy Braddock strongly recommended the use of two gaskets per side on the induction pipe and always used that ploy himself. I did as he said and never had the slightest problem with induction pipe to pot joint. on either pre or post war twins
I
Thinking about it for tadays very low mileage vehicles it would probabbly be worth removing the tappet covers at the start of any lengthy rest period so some engine oil or UCL can be applied to vale stems followed by several turns on the handle plus the occassional bit of handle turning during the rest period. Leaving the tappet covers off would aallow easy inspection of the valves smooth functioning whilst turning. Originally there was a felt pad for vaalve covers to prevent(ish) oil running down back of cylinder so that an oily vapour would exist within the covers sufficient to provide the required lubrocation of the valve stems.

george
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